betrayal of gentleman's agreement, what to do.

[willie]

i don't have the exact hand history of course, but here is how it went down

blinds at 100/200

utg moves all in for 305. mp calls 305, big stack folds his 100 blind, i call the extra 105 from the big blind with j8 os (black)

flop comes down
Q95 (sss)

check check
turn
T (not a spade)
check check (checkin my straight.....hmph)
river
Q (diamond)

check, ALL IN for 1405.

this guy has me covered, i've gotten myself into a world of trouble by checkin like an idiot on the turn (no more gentleman's agreement for me)

other important stacks, we're 6 handed here, i of course don't want to bubble and the guy who just moved in is just slightly higher than me, another stack is even lower.


---possible hands

i go into weaktight mode thinking about what he has, check the nut flush to the river then move in..... check any flush to the river and move in. pair the board has me thinking boat......

what is your move here covered, with a straight against this board.

[bunky9590]

easy fold.

Oh yeah , if you're that short stacked I don't an extra .50 Preflop with J8o.

[JARID]

I dont get it. You didn't really give much of an indication of whats going on in the macro scale of the tourney. Is this online, or live? You are on the bubble apparently?

If this guy has you covered with 1405 then you are both on short stacks. Maybe hes making a move at it because he is not under the impression that there is a gentlemans agreement going on and he really has jack sh*t. I don't know, I call here, but I'm still unclear as to the total situation.

-Jarid

[willie]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get it. You didn't really give much of an indication of whats going on in the macro scale of the tourney. Is this online, or live? You are on the bubble apparently?

If this guy has you covered with 1405 then you are both on short stacks. Maybe hes making a move at it because he is not under the impression that there is a gentlemans agreement going on and he really has jack sh*t. I don't know, I call here, but I'm still unclear as to the total situation.

-Jarid

[/ QUOTE ]

online, 20 person 10+1 at party

yes we're both relatively shortstacked, but one guy at the table has 10k +.

top 4 get paid so i still have some work ahead of me, but still have a LITTLE room to manuever comparatively.

[gergery]

Well he needs to be able to beat the all-in guy so he’s definitely not bluffing -- its just a question of how good his hand is. I’d figure he has a flush here, but full house possible. Trips or two pair should have bet out earlier. Probably fold is best, but if he’s bad/loose then you could call.

[willie]

any more replies before i get to post the results? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

come on, lay it on, tell me i'm a weak tight fish who is playin for 4th. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[willie]

[ QUOTE ]
Well he needs to be able to beat the all-in guy so he’s definitely not bluffing -- its just a question of how good his hand is. I’d figure he has a flush here, but full house possible. Trips or two pair should have bet out earlier. Probably fold is best, but if he’s bad/loose then you could call.

[/ QUOTE ]

no real read on him, i've seen maybe 15 hands since moving to the final table.....

[willie]

ah well, i folded the straight which doesn't seem to be the worst play from people who have posted here....

mp shows down KQ (hh), trip queens.

in retrospect i made 2 mistakes here

1. getting involved in the hand (not so sure this was a mistake, pot was up to 910 and i had to call 105.....)
2. not moving in on the turn when i was relatively sure i had the best hand....


then......i bubbled. wahoo. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TomCollins]

Wtf are you talking about gentleman's agreement. You needed to push the turn. This nonsense about never betting when someone is all in is nonsense. You are not in a satelite near the money. You are in a tournament with a prize pool that is near the top. Get your money in and pay off a better hand. Its pretty simple.

[McMelchior]

I must admit, I don't get it either. There's no gentlemen's agreement, there's only insight into the stupidity of bluffing into a dry sidepot when you're near the bubble. Which of course hurts you as much as any one else. If you have a legitimate hand - and in the context of a 1.5 x BB move in UTG I would consider any pair a legitimate hand - there shouldn't be any reason the play any different from a standard heads-up situation. Hmmm, and you're not even on the bubble here.

Why would you assume the all-in has any part of that board? Unless the MP by some odd coincidence called the all-in raise with Asxs or eventually Ksxs he has every reason to bet the turn (if not earlier) to push out higher draws.

Also, I dont like the MP's move on the river. Holding a strong hand he should try to make you call, not fold. If you have slowplayed the flush this far you're going to call anyway, right?

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[willie]

thanks for clarifying guys...

i fudges this hand horribly, may it not happen again. thanks.

[uw_madtown]

I say he's got a sole Q like, 60% of the time here.

[pshreck]

Lets clarify something....

Breaking the gentlemans agreement is only when someone 'bluffs' a dry pot. In fact, he did, but you have to realize if someone flops top pair, they have to bet it, for protection, not to pick up the pot.