First time poster -- Newbie question about counting outs

[rgrouch]

Hello,

I'm pretty new to the game, and I have what is most likely a stupid question about counting outs. However, I'm going to ask it anyway because that's how i find you learn fastest -- by getting the dumb questions out of the way.

Anyway, here it is: When you are counting outs, do you count all outs that will make you a hand, or only the outs that give you the best shot of making the best hand?

For example, if I have J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

and the board is: 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

In the above scenario, would I count 6 outs for the possibility of making pairs (even though they would likely not be top pair) plus 4 outs for the gut shot straight draw for a total of 10? Or would I only count my straight draw outs for a total of 4?

Thanks for any insight provided.

[Praxx]

Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif makes a flush, so it might be dirty .. so 3, maybe 3.5 outs for your straight. I doubt pairing will help you much - depending on the action you've seen though; but it is likely there is already a pair of aces or kings in play. I wouldn't count them.

[sammy_g]

You count outs to the likely best hand because it only costs you money if you make a second best hand. In your example, you have to assume someone has an ace or a king, so you only have 4 outs. The pot better be laying you 10.5:1 to call a bet.

There are times when you aren't sure if an out will make the best hand or not. The best example of this is probably overcards. Sometimes if you pair one of your overcards, you have the best hand. Sometimes not. In this case it is often correct to "discount" outs. If you think your hand will be good 50% of the time when you pair an overcard, you can assign each card that makes you a pair 0.5 outs. Since 6 cards will make you a pair, you can say you have 3 outs. Thus, the pot has to be offering you excellent odds to chase with overcards and no other draws.

OK, so this was a long-winded answer to a pretty straight-forward question. Hope it makes sense. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Edit: In your example, it is even possible one of the outs that makes a straight for you also makes a flush for someone else, so you might need to discount that out, too.

[PigVomit]

Outs that you don't expect to make the best hand are not outs. Only count outs that you think will make the best hand. In your example you have 4 outs and should only call a bet if you are getting 11:1 pot odds or so. If you did happen to call on the flop your outs may change. say you picked up a pair on the turn then I would increase your out to possible 6 or even 9. (2 outs to make trips and another 3 to make 2 pair) although i don't like the two pair with that board in your example. In that case if you were getting 6:1 or so pot odds on the turn you would probably make a call.

[rgrouch]

No, you made perfect sense. Thanks for the help.