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View Full Version : Allin coup : Collusion or stupidity?


11-24-2001, 05:21 AM
Sorry about the length, but I wanted to be sure that no important details were left out.


I was watching the 1/2 pot limit holdem game at Ultimatebet tonight, doing some research on players before I ventured into the game. I saw one hand that was so bad, it has discouraged me from ever playing in that game, or at least ever playing with the players involved. The players handles were as follows: Small Blind Brett171 (or something very similar), Big Blind SoyDios, and UTG Kongfu.


The flop is KcQc4s, at this point there is a bet, a raise, and a reraise in the first 3 seats. Both players call, creating a $60 main pot and a $4 side pot with the small blind player allin.


The turn is a blank 8h, and is checked by both players. The river is also a blank 2d, and the big blind checks, with the under the gun player betting the full $64 pot.


Now if I was the player in the big blind i would logically deduce that the UTG player could not be bluffing a missed draw, as the allin player cannot be bluffed. Therefore the minimum betting hand here is likely AK. A pot sized bet is a risk of $64 to win $4. 16:1 is a pretty awful ratio for a bluff.


The Big blind folded, and the UTG player showed 5c3c for 5 high. He wins the $4 side pot, and the $60 main pot was won by the allin player who had 9c7c for 9 high.


Is this just stupidity, or is it collusion? It looks very much like collusion between the small blind and the UTG player, because there isn't any hand the big blind could reasonably hold that doesn't beat 9 high. By forcing the big blind out the small blind and the UTG can chop the money.


Surely the UTG player knows that an allin player cannot be bluffed, so this bet is unethical at the very least if it is not cheating.


Has anyone had similar situations occur in live games? If so, what if any action was taken?


(Note: I will refrain from posting this on the internet forum, as it will no doubt be drawn way off the topic by the bunch of crazies there, who probably have never played a single hand of big bet poker.)

11-24-2001, 06:38 AM
Let me see if I understand this.


You think that two guys, one of which goes all in with no hand, no draw (97) and other guy with 5 high are colluding? Don't you think that between two good colluders, one will have something?


These guys can "collude" all they want. What you have here, IMO is stupidity.


Adam.

11-24-2001, 06:40 AM

11-24-2001, 07:21 AM
Stupid yes, but they could easily be colluding. They both had nothing and no chance for the man pot if SoyDios wasn't bet out. However, SoyDios would need a very good hand to call, because of the allin, so they can chop the money with nothing at all.

11-24-2001, 03:43 PM
If they were colluding why the heck would they both have played the same flush draw on the flop? And, on the river, the busted draw has to reasonably assume the opponent could likely be on a hand, so it makes the river bet look even dumber.

11-24-2001, 03:51 PM
This does not have to be collusion, since clearly there are some clueless players at UB. But it could be.


I'm not sure that anyone at UB is paying close attention to the play or reviewing hands to try to identify potential collusion.


That is one reason I much prefer CCC, where a floorman is sitting there watching the games. He or she is always ready to respond to a chat request if something looks funny. And CCC has implemented protections against intentional all-ins, and against hit and run with money being taken off the table.


In contrast, UB basically forces you to take money off; if you are disconnected and you have more than $200 at the time, when you come back you have to buy in for no more than the $200 max. And as far as I can tell, if someone wants to abuse all ins, they seem to be free to do so.


I have no idea how you'd get anyone's attention at UB to report potential collusion. I suppose send an email, but I wonder what would happen if anything.


It seems to me that UB is a pretty cheesy site in terms of software and customer service. The main attraction is the bad players, but the tradeoff is that you play at your own risk with minimal apparent protection from the site.

11-24-2001, 08:25 PM
my guess is that the bettor on the end forgot about the allin man and thought he was stealing the pot. remember players that are not real experienced do stupid things. i do them all the time as well. if they were really colluding no way would they have the same draw as M pointed out.

as to the unethical nature of a bet into an allin guy, it is totally ethical to bet whenever you want to for what ever reason. ive many times bet into a dry pot just to get out one person and let another win. or to let players see that when i bet into a dry pot i may not have a big hand. otherwise you would never get called in those spots.

11-24-2001, 11:30 PM
I was in that game last night, although I wasn't involved in that particular hand. The player "Kongfu" does things like that all the time, and although I only met Brett last night, he seemed like a decent guy, very chatty, not the "colluding" type at all. I'm fairly certain that it was just a normal terrible play by Kongfu, and not the result of collusion.

11-25-2001, 12:47 AM
I am the Brett in question and I can explain the situation. I had 4 clubs BEFORE turn card and i stayed in quite simply. This KongFu guy who was bumping the whole way is loosey goose to say the least with his hand selections. I figured him for nothing as I pay close attention to what other ppl play and how they bet. Must be Wall Street background! Anyways I got lucky and sometimes that wins. My apologies to Norm if he was affronted and I welcome him into the next game.


Cheers


Brett

11-25-2001, 06:00 AM
I've just finished watching another session of the game, and I saw Kongfu again. The guy is simply stupid. I saw him burn off 3 $200 buyins in less than 20 minutes. My apologies to Brett11tt, obviously he was just the beneficary or stupidity on Kongfu's part.


The same thing actually happened to me today in a tournament. KK8 flop i have 8T in the big blind, pot is 4000. Stack with 200 goes allin i call, and so does player behind me. 3 turn checked, 3 river checked by me and then the player behind me bets 2000. I fold and the allin wins with pocket 6s. Funny thing is that if he had checked the allin would have been eliminated and the player behind me would have been in the money. Then he got eliminated next and the whole episode cost him $20 for third. Allin player ended up beating me in the headsup, and won.


Stupidity doesn't pay.