QQ against unknown

[Ben]

No notes on the player. $25NL full ring.

I have QQ in LMP.

UTG+1 makes it $3 to go. Folded to me and I stop and think. I debate just calling and seeing if my Qs remain overcards, intending to push if so--is this a terrible line? Instead, however, I raised to $7.

Folded back to UTG+1 and he raises to $15.

My thoughts at this point are that most party $25 players have AA or KK the vast majority of the time that they re-re-raise PF. I fold.

Comments?

[Richie Rich]

A few factors to consider...
(1) You're a big dog vs. AA/KK
(2) You're a coin flip vs. AK
(3) Would he really push with JJ?
(4) Liklihood that he's holding QQ is slim to none

ps~ what happend to your bam margera-look alike picture?

[Ben]

Good analysis. I agree with you and you helped clear up my thinking a little bit. Thanks.

I had my avatar hosted on my personal webserver, which is currently down. I might UL it to the 2+2 server...I don't even think they allow external linkage anymore.

Oh, and I've never gotten the Bam lookalike comment before. Interesting.

-Ben

[okayplayer]

I think the play is fine... a re-raise to me says AA or KK. So it's a safe laydown. If the stacks were deep you could justify a call based on implied odds of hitting your set, but at $25NL, it's a safe laydown.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
No notes on the player. $25NL full ring.

I have QQ in LMP.

UTG+1 makes it $3 to go. Folded to me and I stop and think. I debate just calling and seeing if my Qs remain overcards, intending to push if so--is this a terrible line?

[/ QUOTE ]

If both stacks are such that it was only about 10% or less to call the raise, then calling with the QQ would normally be best.

If the % is significantly more than this, committ or fold.


[ QUOTE ]
Instead, however, I raised to $7.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the terrible line...

[ QUOTE ]
Folded back to UTG+1 and he raises to $15.....I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and this is why.

[Ben]

[ QUOTE ]
That's the terrible line...

...and this is why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re-raising with QQ is a terrible line? I don't think I agree with that.

My raise let me release the hand for $7 when I was fairly certain I was beat. Just calling doesn't really tell me where I am, and on a ragged board I'm quite likely to be getting all-in with my strong overpair because I have nothing to tell me my hand is not best. I think the raise was the right play.

Anyone else think I shouldn't have reraised?

[J-Lo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No notes on the player. $25NL full ring.

I have QQ in LMP.

UTG+1 makes it $3 to go. Folded to me and I stop and think. I debate just calling and seeing if my Qs remain overcards, intending to push if so--is this a terrible line?

[/ QUOTE ]

If both stacks are such that it was only about 10% or less to call the raise, then calling with the QQ would normally be best.

If the % is significantly more than this, committ or fold.


[ QUOTE ]
Instead, however, I raised to $7.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the terrible line...

[ QUOTE ]
Folded back to UTG+1 and he raises to $15.....I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

...and this is why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hold up a sec... the reason you re-raise is to check whether or not he had A's or K's... calling a raise w/ Q's and hoping for a set is weak-tight...

And if you just called and he did have A's or K's, you'd go broke, using this line, save yourself the 18 dollars...
on most of my threads i put a disclaimer about not knowing what i'm talking about, but this one, i'm confident that reraising for info is the best line

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else think I shouldn't have reraised?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people will agree with you. But I think they are wrong.

I haven't much time now, and this has been discussed a lot in the past, so I will keep it short. Have a think about what the goal is in a no limit game. Then think about what hands are ideal for that, and then figure out where the main value of QQ comes from in raised pots when the money is not shallow.

With the above answers in mind, play through a few examples in your head, and how certain hands react when you just call the raise, and how they react when you re-raise.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
on most of my threads i put a disclaimer about not knowing what i'm talking about, but this one, i'm confident that reraising for info is the best line

[/ QUOTE ]

Your confidence is misplaced.

[Wayfare]

John, no reason to be a douche. Your post is so damn vague and condescending that it really doesn't help much.

His line was not the way I would have played it, but he got the information he was looking for. The guy represented AA/KK and he folded his QQ from cheap. I would have made it $10 to go preflop.

What do you suggest specifically?

[Ghazban]

I'm surprised to be the only person to say this but, at Party $25, you'll see players doing this with AK and smaller pocket pairs just as often as with AA or KK. Last night, I was in a similar situation and I called (w/KK, not your QQ) and he turned over 77. I've also seen it done a LOT with AK-- I guess these players have read about how AK is best when it can be sure to see all 5 cards). You don't list stack sizes here but, assuming one of you is around $25, I don't think you'd lose in the long run by getting all the money in preflop. With a read on the player, that might change (but you said you had none, so I'd push and, if I'm up against AA or KK, reload and get it back).

[bingledork]

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of people will agree with you. But I think they are wrong.

I haven't much time now, and this has been discussed a lot in the past, so I will keep it short. Have a think about what the goal is in a no limit game. Then think about what hands are ideal for that, and then figure out where the main value of QQ comes from in raised pots when the money is not shallow.

With the above answers in mind, play through a few examples in your head, and how certain hands react when you just call the raise, and how they react when you re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

JohnG,

If you have a reason for your line of thinking, feel free to give it. If not:
Have a think about why stating your opinion without any reasoning is unhelpful.
Then think about why Party $25 is not a deep stack game.
Then think about why re-raising with QQ against bad ABC players is often times the best line.

From my experience, I think it was a good line and a good laydown. My reasons for this are the same as earlier posts: This is how people play AA/KK at Party 25.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
Then think about what hands are ideal for that, and then figure out where the main value of QQ comes from in raised pots when the money is not shallow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is Party $25, so the money is shallow. If you're going to take a condescending tone (and then be a downright jerk in a later post) at least take the time to know what you are talking about.

Given this assumption by Ben: [ QUOTE ]
My thoughts at this point are that most party $25 players have AA or KK the vast majority of the time that they re-re-raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ] then he made an excellent play. The money is not deep enough to call the raise and plan to play on only if he makes a set.

However, I do not agree with Ben's assumption. I find that many PP $25 players will rereraise preflop with a huge assortment of crap, including bad aces and middle pairs. I would be willing to push it in with QQ here. I realize that I will lose some of these, but, on PP$25, less than half, I think. Against certain players I will just call and go all in on the flop only if there is no A or K.

Against any better competition, including some PP$25 players and most PP$100 players, I would fold to the rereraise, as Ben did. If money were deep -- such that calling the rereraise were less than 10% of my chips, I will call and look for a set.

[Ben]

[ QUOTE ]
you'll see players doing this with AK and smaller pocket pairs just as often as with AA or KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be, but I'm not sure. Like I said in the original post, my experience has been that a strong reraise like that is usually a very strong hand (I'm thinking AA and KK here).

With AK I'm a coinflip and AA/KK I'm a tremendous dog. With some notes on the player I could certainly put him on other things, but given that I had no read, I think I'd still take the line I did above.

That said, given the smaller stack sizes and the poor play on Party (esp. at this limit) I suppose you could make a pretty good case for pushing here.

-Ben

[Eman]

at the $25 NL tables your raise was clearly the WRONG play.
Your goal there is not to find out if your up against Aces to make a great laydown. Your goal is to bust your opponent. Call the raise and take if from there.

[Wayfare]

You goal is not only to bust the opponent, it is to play poker as if the other players cards were turned up. By doing so you can make the most profit each hand, even on hands that you do not win.

Theory of poker eman. Your line is not complete. What do you propose to do on the flop? What if a king comes and he bets into you? What if it's jack high and he bets into you?

[Ben]

[ QUOTE ]
Your goal is to bust your opponent

[/ QUOTE ]

Mmm. Yes. So wouldn't it be a good idea to get a gauge for his hand-strength? I can't bust him without going all-in, and I'd like to wait to do so till I think I have the better hand.

[ QUOTE ]
call the raise and take if from there

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy is that vague and useless.

[okayplayer]

I agree. I think this was the correct play, I've never played the $25NL PP game, but if you make the right moves at this limit, you'll be much better when you make the transition to higher limits. This would be a very difficult hand to play on the flop with a flat call, because he would most likely bet at it.

[Eman]

My point is you have absolutely no shot at busting him when you fold your hand. Take the flop for $3. Give yourself a chance.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is you have absolutely no shot at busting him when you fold your hand. Take the flop for $3. Give yourself a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
You continue to be vague. And do what?

QQ is way ahead of the average UTG raise in PP$25. You are saying that you would never reraise? Instead, you'd let the cut-off and button in cheap, so they have a shot at breaking you, too?

What do you plan to do in all of these situations? Answer all question both for A. no one behind you called the raise. B. cutoff and/or button also calls PFR so you have them still to act behind you on the flop.
1. Flop is J-high and opponent bets out.
2. Flop is J-high and opponent checks.
3. Flop has A and opponent bets.
4. Flop has K and opponent checks.

Assuming you bet in the times that he checks, what are your plans when he
1. check-raises
2. calls, then the turn is A and he checks.
3. calls, then the turn is A and he bets
4. calls, then the turn is low and he checks
5. calls, then the turn is low and he bets.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Hold up a sec... the reason you re-raise is to check whether or not he had A's or K's... calling a raise w/ Q's and hoping for a set is weak-tight...

And if you just called and he did have A's or K's, you'd go broke, using this line, save yourself the 18 dollars...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you say calling with QQ is weak tight, yet your reason for re-raising is to avoid going broke. Sounds pretty weak to me.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
John, no reason to be a douche. Your post is so damn vague and condescending that it really doesn't help much.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was vague because I had little time left and have posted about it so often in the past, I am tired of doing so. I do however think I left enough clues and gave enough guidence for those that want to think and work out what I meant.

I apologise if what I posted came off wrong.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hold up a sec... the reason you re-raise is to check whether or not he had A's or K's... calling a raise w/ Q's and hoping for a set is weak-tight...

And if you just called and he did have A's or K's, you'd go broke, using this line, save yourself the 18 dollars...

[/ QUOTE ]

So you say calling with QQ is weak tight, yet your reason for re-raising is to avoid going broke. Sounds pretty weak to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

John, just give us your line and stop being vague.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a reason for your line of thinking, feel free to give it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This topic comes up often. I have often given my thinking.


[ QUOTE ]
If not:
Have a think about why stating your opinion without any reasoning is unhelpful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dropped enough clues. I gave enough directions for people that wanted to think it through and work it out for themselves. Or would you rather be spoon fed?


[ QUOTE ]
hen think about why Party $25 is not a deep stack game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I gave my stack guidelines for when calling is normally best, and when re-raising is the norm. I did that because the poster did not actually mention the stack sizes of those involved. From what he did say, the stack sizes are probably borderline. Which side they fall, I don't know. If they were on the shallow side, the re-raise-fold was generally bad for one reason. If they were on the deep side, the re-raise-fold was generally bad for a different reason.

[ QUOTE ]
Then think about why re-raising with QQ against bad ABC players is often times the best line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends what you mean by bad abc players.

[ QUOTE ]
From my experience, I think it was a good line and a good laydown. My reasons for this are the same as earlier posts: This is how people play AA/KK at Party 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to be forced to laydown QQ preflop on non shallow money. The hands main value is destroyed when you do that. It's why re-raising with the intention of folding to a push is so bad. What a waste.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, this is Party $25, so the money is shallow. If you're going to take a condescending tone (and then be a downright jerk in a later post) at least take the time to know what you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't seen me be a jerk. But carry on and you may.

It is interesting to see what it takes to stimulate replies to my posts around here.

[ QUOTE ]
Given this assumption by Ben: [ QUOTE ]
My thoughts at this point are that most party $25 players have AA or KK the vast majority of the time that they re-re-raise PF.

[/ QUOTE ] then he made an excellent play. The money is not deep enough to call the raise and plan to play on only if he makes a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you under the impression I suggested he call the re-re-raise? If you are, that is not what I said. Obviously he can not call the re-re-raise, but are you suggesting he couldn't call the first raise due to the money being too shallow? I don't think you can say that as the poster did not actually give stack sizes. Which is why I covered this by stating rough parameters for just calling or re-raising the initial raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Against any better competition, including some PP$25 players and most PP$100 players, I would fold to the rereraise, as Ben did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why you just call the initial raise instead of re-raising yourself. Assuming it was only about 10% or less of the relevant stacks to call.

[ QUOTE ]
If money were deep -- such that calling the rereraise were less than 10% of my chips, I will call and look for a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

With money that deep, re-raising the initial raise is a fine play, as you cannot be forced off the hand by a further raise.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is you have absolutely no shot at busting him when you fold your hand. Take the flop for $3. Give yourself a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]
You continue to be vague. And do what?

QQ is way ahead of the average UTG raise in PP$25.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what. That's not where it's main value comes from. It's main value in this spot comes from being able to see the flop. Hands like this are not common. Don't waste the value when you get them.

[ QUOTE ]
You are saying that you would never reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I re-raise on shallow money, where it is over 10% of relevant stacks to call the raise. I re-raise on very deep money where a further raise cannot stop you seeing the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Instead, you'd let the cut-off and button in cheap, so they have a shot at breaking you, too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not as good a shot as you have of breaking them. Maybe even breaking all of them.

And as for the post flop questions. Here's something to consider-Flat calling the raise preflop, and then folding on the flop whenever you do not hit the set would make more money in the long run from QQ than re-raising with it preflop and either winning a small pot when everyone folds or folding and losing a small pot when someone re-re-raises. Not that I recommend folding whenever you miss the set. It just illustrates a point.

[amoeba]

so if the flop comes 2 5 7 rainbow and opponent bets pot, you would fold?

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
John, just give us your line and stop being vague.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe anybody that thinks through the suggestions I wrote below should be able to figure why flat calling the initial raise is best, so long as it's not more than 10% of relevant stacks to do so. More than 10% and it's usually re-raise or fold time, but on slightly more than 10% exceptions can be made where calling is still best.

[ QUOTE ]
Have a think about what the goal is in a no limit game. Then think about what hands are ideal for that, and then figure out where the main value of QQ comes from in raised pots when the money is not shallow.

With the above answers in mind, play through a few examples in your head, and how certain hands react when you just call the raise, and how they react when you re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just try it with a few hands. Say AK, AA, KK, JJ. How each of those hands react to a re-raise and how they react to a flat call.

The goal with no limit is to win big pots. Sets are the ideal hand to do that with. As are overpairs on this depth of money. Re-raising preflop runs the risk of turning the QQ into 72o.

You bust JJ on many flops, when it otherwise folds preflop or bluffs you out. You bust AA/KK when you flop a set. You bust AK when you flop a set with an ace. You make more out of AK when you flop an overpair, and can not get bluffed out by it preflop. You can get away cheap when overcards flop. Your preflop call may attract in other callers like TT or AK that you then bust postflop. So on and so on. The downside is that you bust a few times when you otherwise wouldn't have. But that doesn't matter. Profit is what matters. Calling just makes more profit than re-raising and then folding preflop. Even calling and folding every flop when you miss the set makes more profit than re-raising and then folding preflop. In short, you do not want to lose the opportunity of seeing the flop when you hold a hand that can win huge. Give your hand the chance it deserves.

[amoeba]

But the thing is you are assuming that AK and JJ will re-re raise preflop when in fact JJ will likely call for set value, Ak will flat call as well giving you a good indication that villain doesn't hold AA, KK.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
so if the flop comes 2 5 7 rainbow and opponent bets pot, you would fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

On ratios where my calling the flop bet would leave less than 2X pot in stacks, then I would most likely move in. Hands like TT/JJ will be doubling me through. I move in against a loose player. I move in against a tight player.

On ratios where there would be more than this in the stacks, I just call the flop bet.

Very very deep stacks, and I would have been re-raising preflop.

If you thought I would fold based on what I said about folding whenever you miss the set, I only said that to illustrate how that is still so much more profitable than re-raising and then folding preflop. The fact even this basic weak play makes more money shows why re-raising preflop is such a bad idea.

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else think I shouldn't have reraised?

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of people will agree with you. But I think they are wrong.

I haven't much time now, and this has been discussed a lot in the past, so I will keep it short. Have a think about what the goal is in a no limit game. Then think about what hands are ideal for that, and then figure out where the main value of QQ comes from in raised pots when the money is not shallow.

With the above answers in mind, play through a few examples in your head, and how certain hands react when you just call the raise, and how they react when you re-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]


The money is shallow, this is Party 25NL. I usually call here, but I think his play is fine and most likely saved him money. I would push against a LAG, fold to any solid-type player.

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
John, no reason to be a douche. Your post is so damn vague and condescending that it really doesn't help much.

His line was not the way I would have played it, but he got the information he was looking for. The guy represented AA/KK and he folded his QQ from cheap. I would have made it $10 to go preflop.

What do you suggest specifically?

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen, brother. "Think about this" "Think about that", could you be any more patronizing? tyvm for all the "clues".

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
But the thing is you are assuming that AK and JJ will re-re raise preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

Or they may fold. I don't want to give them a chance to do either when I hold QQ.

With regards them just calling with JJ/AK if we re-raise. We can't be sure they will do that rather than fold or re-raise. Them just calling would actually be a pretty poor play in a lot of circumstances.

However, if I knew for sure that they would call a re-raise with AK/JJ, and only re-re-raise with AA/KK, I still prefer just calling their initial raise. I don't need to inflate the pot preflop against JJ in order to bust it on a lot of flops and these ratios. I don't need to inflate the pot to still get the same amont of money out of AK when it misses. I also lose less money when it hits. And the risk that they hold AA/KK and push me out with a re-re-raise is just not worth it. There's risk, for not much extra reward, if any at all. I also don't want to push other hands out with a preflop re-raise, either from the initial raiser or those behind me. I want a chance to win huge. That's what the hand is designed for.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Amen, brother. "Think about this" "Think about that", could you be any more patronizing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But only to idiots.

I apologise for suggesting you think. I apologise for trying to guide people in figuring it for themselves. I'll try to do all the work for you next time. Dick.

[amoeba]

once again, OP posted it was an unknown.

you should respond to Zag's post above yours.

[amoeba]

why do you not want AK to fold?

are you certain A or K won't flop?

your earlier answers make it seem like you can tell whether opponent as JJ, AK, AA, or KK when in fact you don't.

lets not forget that opponent can easily be raising with AQ and perhaps AJ. I would definitely want to reraise preflop and hope to either fold those or at least charge for them to flop the ace.

[Ghazban]

While I'm not thrilled about your general tone and presentation, I understand what you're saying and completely agree (its basically an extended version of what I wrote in my responses).

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
once again, OP posted it was an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you are responding to. If it's to what I do on a 257 flop, I would normally move in on the flop after flat calling preflop. The fact he is unknown just supports my view to flat call preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
you should respond to Zag's post above yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did. But I'm not going through every possibility like he seems to want. What it boils down to is getting the value from your hand. That means calling preflop, and taking it from there.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you not want AK to fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Regardless of what he holds, I do not want him to fold (or raise) and take away my chance of winning a big pot.

[ QUOTE ]
are you certain A or K won't flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. But I can get away cheap if they do. I don't care if he bluffs me out on the flop. It's a small pot. What matters is I gave myself the chance to win big.

[ QUOTE ]
your earlier answers make it seem like you can tell whether opponent as JJ, AK, AA, or KK when in fact you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what exactly he has, but I can put him on a range. If we give him a very small range of AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK, then QQ makes more profit against that range by flat calling preflop, unless the money is shallow. Calling makes more money in the long run against any range, compared to re-raising preflop and then folding.

It doesn't really matter if I can tell. What matters is giving this type of hand the chance to see the flop and winning big.

[ QUOTE ]
lets not forget that opponent can easily be raising with AQ and perhaps AJ. I would definitely want to reraise preflop and hope to either fold those or at least charge for them to flop the ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your goal with QQ is not to win or lose a small pot preflop. It is to win a big pot. Charging them to flop the ace is more of a limit thing I think. It doesn't matter if they flop the ace. You've put very little in the pot. But what if it comes AQ, or J/Q hi, or they miss completely.

You call preflop, and a Q or J comes on flop giving them top pair, they bet, you move in without overbetting too much. They go broke. Or you call, they miss, and bet the pot. You move in, they fold. You win more money than re-raising preflop and having them fold. Or you call preflop. The ace comes. You lose a small pot. Or a K comes, they bet, you decide to fold. You get bluffed from a small pot. Although it isn't automatic to fold to a K or ace on flop. All of them are better than re-raising preflop and giving them a chance to get away from the AQ/AJ or bluff you out, taking away your opportunity to see the flop.

[amoeba]

the way you are advocating the play of QQ, would you reraise AA or KK?

wouldn't you not want AK or QQ or JJ to get away either so you would just flat call preflop? At least according to your logic.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
the way you are advocating the play of QQ, would you reraise AA or KK?

wouldn't you not want AK or QQ or JJ to get away either so you would just flat call preflop? At least according to your logic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would re-raise because I can still win a big pot due to not folding to a further raise. AA and KK want to get re-re-raised preflop. It's where it's main value is. There's quite a difference between QQ and AA/KK here.

There's also less chance of being outdrawn or bluffed out on the flop with KK/AA in a big pot, should someone somehow just call your reraise preflop.

[emil3000]

I think JohnG is right. It's really a matter of stacksizes, when you decide what to do here. If you can raise all in on a rag flop withoút overbetting, that's sweet.
An important skill in NL, (one that I'm certainly no master of) is manipulating pot size to be the right one in realtion to your hand and stack size.

And like he says, winning small pots is not your goal in NL.

[rickr]

Thought I'd give my 2 cents worth. $3.00 is not a small raise for your villian. Someone stated something about if you called u let the rest of the field in cheap. This is like 6x BB, not cheap. At this level, that's not excessive, takes a big bet to push out the trash. Most of the field has already folded. If you raise, you'll probably push out the rest, for what? The idea is to narrow the field, not eliminate it. What you did was basically try to bluff the original raiser off the pot. Pocket pairs are wonderful hands to play in a raised pot, so why blow everyone out of the water preflop. Call the bet. If you don't like the flop, get out cheap. If you do, decide how to bet afterward. If he's got kk or aa, your not going to push him off, and he's got you beat preflop. But if you just call, and something like qjx rainbow comes, you've got the nut, and you can try and get as much value out of your q's as possible. If a scary flop comes, you can dump it cheap. As John referred to, if you were planning on folding the q's to a reraise, you have reduced there value to that of 72o. What's the point? I've found that huge bets preflop are not the best way to play premium hands. Raise enough to take out the trash, then play the cards. Even with AA. Why put huge amounts of money at the beginning of a hand? Since deciding that my aces can get beat no matter how I play them, I've made a lot more money slowing down a bit. You don't get premium hands often, so when you do, do you want to push people of the pot preflop? Seems like a waste of a good hand. Try that with 72o, not QQ,KK,AA. As for being a coinflip on hands, there all coinflips. In order to extract the most money from a pot, all hands have to be close, or you have to be playing with idiots. Learn to lay down high cards if it goes bad, and I think you'll make alot more money when they go well. Your not trying to win the hand, your trying to win the most money per hand played.

Just my opinion,

Rick

[samurai]

You convinced me. I cannot see a flaw in that approach.

[Zag]

So finally you tell us your postflop strategy. Let me sum it up to make sure I understand it.

Flop has a Q, or is J-high or less, you are prepared to go all in.
Flop has A or K (and no Q), you will fold to a bet, or bet if checked to. I assume you will fold to a check-raise. I still don't see what you do when they call and then either bet out or not on the turn, but I am prepared to agree that that gets played by ear, since it is so player-dependent and flop-texture-dependent.

I certainly don't see you getting away from AA or KK on low flops, with this strategy. You did say that you plan to break the AJ on a J-high flop. Do you have some way to be able to distinguish that hand from AA on a J-high flop (or JJ)? Note that the AJ is drawing to 5 outs, but your QQ is drawing to only 2 if he actually has AA or KK (or JJ), so you had better be 70+% sure that you are the one who is ahead.

The very argument you are using can be used from his side, as well, if he holds JJ-99. You are giving him the cheap opportunity to break you, and you already have said that he will succeed if he has one of these and hits a set. However, you have also given him initiative, so he also wins all flops with A or K in them, as long as he bets out. Admittedly, this is for small money, but it adds up. Also, you have said that the very hands our hero was looking to get away from, AA and KK, will break you if the flop is low.

I can't say I like your strategy much, against the average PP$25 player, who is as likely to hold 99 as AA for his preflop raise. Certainly, if you believe the raise might mean AJ, you have to believe it might mean TT, as well. All in all, I see more situations where you go broke than where you break the other player. Plus you have given up on most of the little pots, too.

Finally, you completely discount the fact that our hero's raise preflop actually makes the pot one worth winning. Sure, there are a few cases where the opponent rereraises, and our hero has to lay it down. However, there are vastly more cases where our hero is way ahead, but the opponent calls and then gives up on the flop. But with the reraise, the pot is now 20 BBs. Still not huge, but big enough when the stack sizes are only around 50 BBs.

In fact, in many cases, your strategy only wins the insignificant 3 BBs from the opponent's original raise -- all the cases where he has a decent ace and then check-folds the flop. He would have called the reraise preflop with most of those. This looks like another place where you are leaving a lot of money in the other player's stack.

But thanks, JohnG, for the discussion. I am glad to have thought it through.

[1800GAMBLER]

Hey.

Reraising is very very correct. This hand usually comes up every 6 months around here and the replies are always the same arguement just with different people.

Here's a simple yet crappy imagine poker as a one street game comparison:

You are playing a game in which there are 20 cards face down all numbered 1 - 20 against one other player, the betting is only on this one card, highest card wins. He picks up, you pick up 17. He bets. You KNOW his range for his is 12 - 20, so you reraise for value. He then reraises you, now you also KNOW his range is 18 - 20 and he isn't bluffing at all, so he isn't playing an optimal game. Now instead of calling you can fold.

This one street comparison can be applied here because really with QQ you have no redraw on him the 5 cards are meaingless right now because you don't have the price to see them. The only difference is when you reraise you are doing it for value yet the disadvantage of that is sometimes your QQ hand loses value because you don't get the chance to flop a set - when he reraises you.

So yes, i play it the same.

[Zag]

Interesting analogy. However, I think you have come to the wrong conclusion based on it. But we have to delineate your opponent's strategy more completely.

You have said that he will:
12-20: bet out

if raised:
18-20: reraise

However, you haven't said what he will do with the others if raised. Suppose it were:
if raised:
12-16: fold
17: call
18-20: reraise

Then your correct strategy would be just to call with a 17. You have the classic cusp hand, where a raise can only cost you money, because all hands it beats will fold. (I am assuming that there is only one 17, so if you have it, he can't.) If this is his strategy, then you need at least a 19 to reraise, but you should also reraise with a 1 (or some other low card you choose), because he is just a little too tight so you should be bluffing.

(Note that very slightly more than 1 of every 3 reraises by you is a bluff. For a pot-sized bet, this is the correct ratio.)

On the other hand, if his strategy is:
if raised:
12: fold
13-19: call
20: reraise

Then a raise with 17 is correct, because it will win extra money from 13, 14, 15, 16 and it will lose extra money only to 18, 19, 20. Note that you would never bluff this player -- he is a calling station.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
So finally you tell us your postflop strategy. Let me sum it up to make sure I understand it.

Flop has a Q, or is J-high or less, you are prepared to go all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm prepared to go allin on most flops headsup with these ratios. Probably on most flops multiway also.

On the flop, when bet to me on stacks that would have more than one bet left if I just call, then I will not be raising an overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop has A or K (and no Q), you will fold to a bet,

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not automatic if headsup on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
or bet if checked to.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably. Maybe not.

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you will fold to a check-raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it was allin, I may call.

It's pretty difficult to discuss general play here. My only real post flop strategy is to try and make good decisions in the situations presented me.

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't see you getting away from AA or KK on low flops, with this strategy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will go broke on those flops. But so will he on hands like JJ/TT, given the ratios. I can get away on deeper money, or at the least minimise my loss.

[ QUOTE ]
You did say that you plan to break the AJ on a J-high flop. Do you have some way to be able to distinguish that hand from AA on a J-high flop (or JJ)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not usually. I play his range of hands. Some bust me, but the majority either bet-fold or get broke.

[ QUOTE ]
Note that the AJ is drawing to 5 outs, but your QQ is drawing to only 2 if he actually has AA or KK (or JJ), so you had better be 70+% sure that you are the one who is ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are not the only hands he could be holding, so your 70% figure may be wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
The very argument you are using can be used from his side, as well, if he holds JJ-99. You are giving him the cheap opportunity to break you, and you already have said that he will succeed if he has one of these and hits a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's more likely? Him flopping a set on a low board to break me, or me breaking him on a low board. Not to mention a few times when we both hit the set. Who would be ahead in the long run?


[ QUOTE ]
However, you have also given him initiative,

[/ QUOTE ]

I want him to have the initiative. I want him to bet the flop. I have position, the most likely better preflop hand, and all the options. All the money goes in when I decide it does. He will be the one making the tough decision when I decide the money goes in, and I can have plenty of hands other than QQ.

[ QUOTE ]
so he also wins all flops with A or K in them, as long as he bets out.

[/ QUOTE ]

No he won't. Maybe on the depth of money we are talking here he might, but not on deeper money.

[ QUOTE ]
Admittedly, this is for small money, but it adds up. Also, you have said that the very hands our hero was looking to get away from, AA and KK, will break you if the flop is low.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes he will. But the odds are against him having those 2 hands, gven his entire range. And when he does hold those hands, he still needs the right flop to bust me.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say I like your strategy much, against the average PP$25 player, who is as likely to hold 99 as AA for his preflop raise. Certainly, if you believe the raise might mean AJ, you have to believe it might mean TT, as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the player you describe here, the TT is going broke to me a lot more often than I am going broke to him. So is the AJ. I don't see these hands being in their range of possibilities as a bad thing. The chance of me doubling through them increases much more significantly, compared to the slightly increased risk of them doubling through me.

[ QUOTE ]
All in all, I see more situations where you go broke than where you break the other player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't know how you can think that. All these JJ/TT/99 hands that you talk about go broke to me much more than I go broke to them. The relative small pots they may bluff me out of do not make up for it. None of the extra situations you have described so far have the QQ taking the worst of it in the long run.

[ QUOTE ]
Plus you have given up on most of the little pots, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

He only takes the small pots when an ace or king hits and he bets. I will be taking the majority of small pots when an ace or king doesn't come, he bets and then folds when I move in (so the small pots I am winning are bigger than the ones he wins, and I win more of them than he does).

I will also be winning more than my fair share of small pots in other situations. I save my preflop re-raises on this 50-100X BB type stacks for very big hands or small hands. Neither mind a re-raise. Hands that can win huge see the flop. I'm pretty sure Sklansky says something about this in one of his books. I think Doyle does too, and I believe Ciaffone would also be in the calling camp.


[ QUOTE ]
Finally, you completely discount the fact that our hero's raise preflop actually makes the pot one worth winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't discount it. I consider it along with the nature of my hand. I will be re-raising with AA/KK or a bluff.

But with hands like QQ/JJ, the pot is not worth winning as much as his or someone elses entire stack is, or maybe even more than 1 persons stack. That's the potential of these hands in raised pots.


[ QUOTE ]
Sure, there are a few cases where the opponent rereraises, and our hero has to lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think those lost opportunities are a big loss. Moreso as the money gets deeper.

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, in many cases, your strategy only wins the insignificant 3 BBs from the opponent's original raise -- all the cases where he has a decent ace and then check-folds the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That type of player will not be bluffing me out when an overcard hits, but misses him. I will be winning my fair share of small pots when overcards hit in that case. This type of player is also probably more likely to go broke whne they hit a worse overpair or pair their kicker. i.e. 99 on an 8 hi flop that a better player may fold.

You seem to only be seeing headsup pots when I call. There will be quite a few multiway pots. Maybe the original raiser check-folds his ace-rag, but a player that came in behind me, due to my preflop call, goes broke with TT. I may also bust multiple players and win a really huge pot. (These situations are even more likely given the quality of player you have started to describe).

[ QUOTE ]
He would have called the reraise preflop with most of those. This looks like another place where you are leaving a lot of money in the other player's stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think on the ratios discussed, any call of a re-raise would be a bad play. An allin or fold would be considered the norm for a decent player. But against these bad players you describe, and on the stacks being discussed where it is the borderline between deep and shallow in a raised pot, you may well have a point. There may not be much difference between re-raising or just calling with the QQ in that particular setup. As the players get slightly better, or money deeper, I think the difference between the 2 plays would grow significantly.

For example, if the money is deep enough where decent players may well call a re-raise, then you still have all those post flop situations from above that you didn't like for QQ, only now you have a much bigger pot and less room to play, compared to just calling and seeing the flop. When I call and see the flop on those ratios, I will not go bust on QQ that often. Certainly much less than you will after re-raising preflop and being called. When all the money goes in post flop, I will be winning more of them big pots than you will. And I will also be getting more opportunities to do so, given that I will not get raised off the hand preflop. There will also be times I will win a big pot off someone else behind me, or a mega big pot by busting multiple players when I hit the set. Something you will not do due to raising them out. Don't know if I got my point across here.

I think enough has been said on the matter now. I doubt anyone is changing their mind. I think the best test is players trying both ways themselves. Say, splitting up the combinations of the QQ. Calling a raise with 3 combinations, and re-raising with the other 3. After enough time, the preferred play for that person will show itself.

Thanks for the discussion. More of the same, and I may get my poker mind sharp again.

[GimmeDaWatch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Amen, brother. "Think about this" "Think about that", could you be any more patronizing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. But only to idiots.

I apologise for suggesting you think. I apologise for trying to guide people in figuring it for themselves. I'll try to do all the work for you next time. Dick.

[/ QUOTE ]

True to form. Think about what you do when the flop is all undercards and he pots it to you. Now think about what you do on the turn when he pots it again. Now think about how a re-raise might sort this out.

[Matt Flynn]

not that i know anything about party $25 nl but it appears to me all three lines aren't all that different in ev due to the weird gameworld created by frequent utg-ish raises to 6x the pot and unpredictable and highly variable opponents.

party's 25 with a 3 raise up front sets up a unique game situation. first, he raised to 6x the pot. big raise. he's nutty to do that frequently. ok party 25 players are nutty. but how nutty is this particular presumed nut?

he's also raised to 12% of your stack. you have no implied odds to call with any hand that isn't big or that you cannot steal frequently with. and you've got lugnut and and peanut behind you and you don't know what they'll do.

if he's nitty nutty, you commit suicide by raising. that's why in any reasonably tight big no limit game (where a raise doesn't necessarily mean much but reraises get respect), you kill your value in qq by reraising. very stupid to raise there longhanded unless your opponent is ready to jam with a variety of holdings. if your opponent will call with a wide variety of holdings, reraising works nicely.

but here you face another problem if you reraise: he can put you to a tough decision if he jacks it up. if he pops you back, what then? well you have to know his fuggit factor. and you don't. and the average party 25 player has a huge fuggit factor. so with $14.75 plus his pop staring at you, with AK in your mind and AQ/AJ/TT/JJ/worse bs, you really end up shoving your chips in always with QQ if you reraise preflop and get re-reraised. keep in mind before you blast away at that that there's big dead money in the pot. even if he goes all in, you are getting almost 2:1 on your money. you imagine him having AA/KK because that's what you'd want to go all in. but assuming players play like you do is a major error. if the average party 25 player truly plays that way (AND would raise that much utg with his precious AA/KK), then the game is much harder than has been represented. i suspect the "average" player would go with AK too. 16 ways to get AK, 12 ways to get AA/KK. add AQ, QQ and JJ and you are clearly pos ev to call an all in given the dead money in the pot. add TT and you become a favorite.

folding to a re-reraise only makes sense if your opponent has some predictability to him. is the average party 25 player really that scared of a reraise? my impression is no.

soo, what i would do in that freakish gameworld is call. gives me a lot of control. puts him in a position of uncertainty. i would also call with AK. if five people come behind you so what. then you play for set equity and fold if an overcard comes. if three players take the flop you fire if checked to no matter what. if you have an overpair on the flop with three players and $9.25 or more in the pot, you are all in and just need to figure out how to get the money in the middle the quickest. calling sets you up for easy decisions. excellent beginner strategy. also an excellent strategy when you face the collective collusive.

matt

[Ben]

Matt-

What a terriffic response: well explained and eloquently written.

Thanks for taking the time.

-Ben

[Ben]

I came up with two questions:

[ QUOTE ]
party's 25 with a 3 raise up front sets up a unique game situation. first, he raised to 6x the pot. big raise. he's nutty to do that frequently. ok party 25 players are nutty. but how nutty is this particular presumed nut?

[/ QUOTE ]

This surprises me. When I raise PF it's always to $3 (6xBB). Even doing this pretty much only with AK, QQ, KK, and AA I will still frequent callers. On looser tables I'll get callers with $4 (8xBB) at times. Am I nutty for raising this amount if the fish will call and then fold when I pot it on the flop? Should my raises be lower?

[ QUOTE ]
soo, what i would do in that freakish gameworld is call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just double-checking: you mean you would call here after his re-reraise, right?

Does this mean you agree with my reraise or that's what you'd recommend given that I'd already gotten to that point?

Thanks again,
Ben

[1800GAMBLER]

Nitpicking.

You often see players raising 99 then folding to a reraise at $25 nl?

[rickr]

6x BB raise at PP NL $25 is not really unusual. I start at 3x with a decent hand, but the tables are so loose, I'm forced at times to go to 8x just to force out the draws. Just the way it is.

Later,
Rick

[Matt Flynn]

ben,

wow. if you can still get callers then absolutely play it just as you suggest. try trapping with AK sometimes: limp, then call the raise, then check-raise the flop or lead if the raiser's position make it better to do so.

by call i meant call the $3.

matt

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
You often see players raising 99 then folding to a reraise at $25 nl?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't. That's why I was advocating the raise by QQ. I think that you are ahead of the average raising hand AND (the important point) they will not fold to a reraise.

To Matt Flynn: Thanks for a great note. I see you come to the same conclusion as JohnG, but you actually make your points without a lot of self-contradictory stuff as he has.* I still disagree with your result, but I believe that the difference is small and is based on some different assumptions. (For example, one assumption that was made by the original poster is that the opponent would rereraise ONLY with AA or KK. I was operating on that read as fact. I don't actually agree with it, for the average PP$25 player, but that was the read at the table.)

* Two contradictory statements from JohnG's latest note:

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The very argument you are using can be used from his side, as well, if he holds JJ-99. You are giving him the cheap opportunity to break you, and you already have said that he will succeed if he has one of these and hits a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's more likely? Him flopping a set on a low board to break me, or me breaking him on a low board. Not to mention a few times when we both hit the set. Who would be ahead in the long run?

[/ QUOTE ]and
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Sure, there are a few cases where the opponent rereraises (demonstrating AA or KK), and our hero has to lay it down.

[/ QUOTE ]
And I think those lost opportunities are a big loss.

[/ QUOTE ]
John's point is that having the overpair is hugely powerful, when he holds it, and the possibility of the opponent hitting a set with his underpair is negligable. But when he holds the underpair, it is a huge opportunity, and the opponent with the overpair is in trouble, because he will break him when he hits the set. Hmmmm.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
True to form. Think about what you do when the flop is all undercards and he pots it to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, on these ratios, I move allin most probably.

[ QUOTE ]
Now think about what you do on the turn when he pots it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

He won't have the chance on these ratios. On deeper money, I either move-in or fold. On even deeper money where moving in is too big an overbet, I either call or fold.

[ QUOTE ]
Now think about how a re-raise might sort this out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sort what out? Did you think the above 2 scenarios were a problem? Maybe if you thought a little...

BTW, how was my response true to form?

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
John's point is that having the overpair is hugely powerful, when he holds it, and the possibility of the opponent hitting a set with his underpair is negligable. But when he holds the underpair, it is a huge opportunity, and the opponent with the overpair is in trouble, because he will break him when he hits the set. Hmmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no contradiction when you look at the big picture. I am playing a range of hands. I am not just playing against a higher pair or a lower one. There are other hands they can hold.

But if I was just playing against pairs and no others- An overpair is not their most likely hand. My opponent is more likely to have JJ/TT/99 than he is AA/KK. By not re-raising preflop, when I am way ahead, I bust those lower pairs more often than they bust me, and I don't lose the opportunity to bust the AA/KK when I am behind. And I am way ahead more than I am way behind.

I also don't force out players behind me that then may lead to me busting one of them or busting multiple opponents. This is something you just don't seem to consider. They all seem to be headsup scenarios in your mind. Calling generally makes more money.

[Matt Flynn]

no problem on the disagreement. all you have to do is think raiser's calling with a big spread of hand and either reraising with AA/KK only or reraising with a much broader spread of hands to make reraising fine.

matt