Whatever happened to check-call?

[Derek in NYC]

SSH has been very influential here on 2+2. So much so, that tactics like check-calling the river are often frowned upon as weak-tight.

Now I'm not saying to check call the river every time a random scare card appears (e.g., board pairing, 3rd of a suit, etc.) But what if the river brings a card that can improve multiple hands, e.g., pairing the board AND bringing the 3rd of a suit, filling both flush and str8 draws, etc. What if the river brings the 4th of a suit?

In other words, my question is: when is it right to check-call the river? (Also known as: whatever happened to the advice that betting in certain places is wrong because the only hand that can call you will beat you?)

[ElSapo]

I tend to check-call more when I think an opponent -missed- than when I think they may have hit. This is somewhat different against multiple opponents.

Heads up, I'll check and let them bluff if I think they have a busted draw they would otherwise fold. If I think they may have gotten there, I generally bet - if they raise, I can work it from there. Oftentimes, in passive games, an opponent will hit his flush and still simply call. The logic, I think, runs like "he sees the flush may have gotten there, and he still bets. I better just call in case he has a better hand."

Against really passive players your value-bet is a virtual free-roll on the river b/c oftentimes they will simply call with a hand that beats you. (Primarily at 2/4, I find this, where players are thinking but still timid)

When four to a flush show up and it's me to act, I bet if I've been showing strengeth all along. I used to check-call this, my logic being they wouldn't fold a flush but might bluff. Now, I never do that -- I bet, and expect them to either fold a better/worse hand, call with a worse hand or marginal flush, or I have a simple situation where I can fold to their raise.

Betting the river here, I am certain I have gotten many low-ish flushes to fold out. The logic again probably goes "he raised pre-flop, he sees the four clubs, I have a 6, he must have a bigger one."

Once multiple opponents are involved, check-call or check-fold becomes more difficult, especially depending on where the action is. If your hand is marginal and you check, the next opponent bets and there are several callers, I'm inclined to fold as my odds of beating all of them are not good. For this reason, I like the bet-and-fold-to-a-raise line. However, if I check, there's a bet and a lot of folding, then I may call as my chances of winning seem higher. But then again you have to consider that the guy betting into multiple opponents and betting into you, who has shown strength, is not likely to be bluffing.

In general, bet it. Once you get raised or check-raised, then you have more information. And never underestimate the amount of credit an opponent will give you - oftentimes it's more than you deserve.

ElSapo