reading opponents

[housenuts]

how well of a read do you usually have on opponents during a 1-table SNG (online)? these might last for just over an hour. is that really enough time to allow you to get a good edge from having good reads?

what do you look for when reading opponents? i know the answer is betting patterns but i just never seem to have that much of a read. i can realize if someone is aggressive, and if i'm paying attention i notice if people are overly tight. i've played lots of SNGs where I merely focus on the 1-table but don't find that extra information gathered is a worthwhile edge. i'm currently playing at the $20+2 level.

basically just looking for any tips on getting reads in these things. thanks.

[CrisBrown]

Hi housenuts,

I think this really depends on what site and buy-in you play. The reason is that you're right: it's difficult to get really good reads in the context of a one-table SNG, except for the most extreme cases. But if you see players over the course of several SNGs, the patterns emerge. At a massive site (like PartyPoker), and a very popular buy-in (like $6 or $11 or $22), it might be possible to play for a month and never see the same player twice. At a smaller site, or at the higher buy-ins, where the pool of players will be smaller, you're more likely to see "repeats," and you can make better reads.

There are some other reads you can pick up apart from the betting patterns, having to do with table chat. If an opponent talks about pot odds (correctly), or shrugs off an outdraw by noting (correctly) that he was a 7:3 favorite when the money went in, etc., you know this person knows at least something about the game. If he makes an absurd call and hits, or says something like "un-frigging-real" when he is outdrawn as only a 3:2 favorite, you know he doesn't know much about what he's doing. If he makes a lot of impatient comments ("zzzzz" "c'mon already" etc.), you can tell he's an impatient player and is likely to misplay some kinds of hands owing to that impatience. If he complains about the cards and outdraws and etc. ("glad i'm not the only one getting screwed by riverstars today"), he may be on tilt. And so on.

Similarly, if a player is in the BB and checks instantly when the action comes to him pre-flop, then bets out hard on a raggy flop, he probably had the auto-check-fold button pressed ... and those rags hit him with a "BB special." If you have only an overpair, it might be wise to fold.

So ... there are some reads you can pick up even in the context of a single SNG (apparent knowledge about the game), some that you can pick up that may only apply for that one SNG (apparent mood), and some that may apply only for a given hand (some quirk in timing). But in general, yes, most of your stronger reads will come over seeing the same player in several SNGs.

Cris

[Jman28]

Really good post Cris.

It depends on the games you're in, but at the 30s on Party, I'll see at least 1-2 guys per table who clearly don't know how to play. When you see an all in on the 1st hand and the winner drew out with Q9s, you know not to give him any respect.

I play 4 tables, so I only get a little bit on the non-maniacs, but I feel that I can pick up on bluffing patterns a little bit. I can see when some guys take shots at every flop. They aren't hitting every one of em.

You can also see who will let you buy the pot from them when they miss. I find this feature in many opponents.

I think people don't pay too much attention to certain things. If one were to pay attention to my play, I'm fairly sure they could spot about 2/3s of my bluffs, and they could see when I have a hand too. (I need to work on that, but it hasn't hurt me yet.)


-Jman28

[chill888]

NOTE NOTES NOTES and keeping player stats.

Reading people online is easy if you've played them a few times, pay attention and make the efffort, luckily people most don't

gl

[Jason Strasser]

Using timing as a read for online poker may be one of the most useless things. There are very few hands I am raising out of the BB with a lot of limpers early--and I almost always have the autocheck button on.

Using table language as another read to make decisions is also useless. I will sometimes enter in stuff in chat like "awwww man, i hate getting noobed like that!", or something lame like that.

Stuff of more interest are tendencies to limp with certain hands, aggression level, and willingness to protect blinds. All this extracurricular stuff you can attempt to read and such, but its a crap shoot. I dont ever see myself making big decisions based on a players chat or his timing of bets.

-Jason

[La Brujita]

One of the main ways I try to make reads is checking every single hand history at PP to see what people went to the river with when it was not shown.

Other quick ways I make reads are (i) watching whether the players know generally what a correct bet would have been and how close they come (ii) whether they play weak aces (iii) how often they cold call with marginal hands (iv) tendency to miniraise (v) how aware of pot odds they were looking back after they made a hand on the come.

Much of this is possibly more applicable for limit games/tourneys.

One other obvious answer is Pokertracker but I am not sure how helpful it would be for 1-table tourneys. I am not saying it would not be helpful, just don't know either way.

[chill888]

I agree with Jason in general, but ...

While autocheck can be misleading, autofold can be a goldmine.

There are a few players that use check/fold button in the BB religiously if they plan on folding to a raise. This allows you to steal with a 2x BB raise as easily as with a 5x raise. Of course if they are planning on playing the hand the small raise might induce a reraise .. but if you are stealing anyway this tell is gold.


gl

[golFUR]

[ QUOTE ]
but don't find that extra information gathered is a worthwhile edge.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy. If a tidbit of information early in the SnG gets you one good size hand in the later rounds, 4 people left or so, it was worth it.

While you should definately take notes on specific reads on specific hands, ones that you might be able to take advantage of when a situation repeats itself (10 SnGs later even), the bulk of your reads should be used to put your opponents on a level of play or level of ability.

Think back to your own poker development, think about what concepts you added to your game and when. Knowing the generic progression of skills it often takes but a hand or two to put an opponent on the scale. If you see someone call UTG then reraise a late position raiser massively, or even worse, only call a late position raiser when it turns out hardly anyone else came in... See someone go way too far with pocket Js when it seemed an obvious fold (granted you won't get to use that till later, but still)... Better yet, see someone call someone else down with 99 on a K high board when it turns out the other guy has AQ...

Any slightly unusual play, any play that isn't completely formulaic, will give you at least a handle on your opponent. Often times it just that, plus a decent handle on the game's tempo, that lets you make brilliant plays here and there.

-------
Some more depth...

All that being said, I think sometimes that a lot of people are putting together pretty solid reads most times, their problem comes in being unable or unwilling to act on them when in a hand.

Following is a specific example from a recent SnG. This is the sort of play I make at least once per SnG, if not half a dozen times depending on table texture.

The read:

SolidBob calls 10 chips UTG+2 early in a SnG. Two players in MP (not me, though I'm inbetween these two players) limp in. HaplessHal makes it 80 to go from the CO. The blinds fold, SolidBob calls, the MP limpers fold. Flop comes K85 rainbow. SolidBob checks, HaplessHal bets 100, a little bit less than half the pot. SolidBob calls. Turn comes another 5, putting two diamonds on the board. SolidBob checks, HaplessHal bets 350, pretty close to a pot size bet, SolidBob calls. On the river a blank comes off, SolidBob leads out 200, HaplessHal calls. SolidBob shows AA for two pair As and 5s, HaplessHal shows AK for two pair, Ks and 5s.

Now I read SolidBob, obviously by the name I gave him, as pretty solid. That was a nice read on his opponent, a well played trap, and he extracted quite a bit of money. Now the play is over, the SnG goes on, and over the course of the next few levels SolidBob continues his solid play and I establish my image as a relatively tight player, aggressive on the flops when I get heads up preflop etc.

The Play:

A few levels later I decide to put my read to work for me. I may have tried this here and there in between and had it not work out quite right, but I've got the read, the situation should repeat at some point, and here it finally does.

SolidBob raises the minimum UTG at the 30-60 level. I double his bet to 240, all fold behind, he calls. Flop comes Q83 with two hearts. He checks to me, I bet out 250, he calls. Turn comes 9, he checks to me, I bet out 400, he raises to 800, I go all in, he folds and shows Ks. I confirm for him afterwards that I tried to show my set of 8s but I was too late.

In reality I had garbage, complete garbage. I raised behind to give him an opportunity to trap. He fell in. He tried to play the same hand he played earlier, he gave me credit for having seen it. Because I'd established myself as no dummy either, he was prepared to walk away from his overpair when he sniffed out my set. He chalked it up to 'one trap too many' and vowed to raise preflop next time he had Ks (I'm guessing... that's what I do everytime a trap ends up being wasted /images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

Now of course there are dynamics and other hands that took place around these two, that flesh out the story better and don't make my hand look quite as psychotic as it is.

The point of the story is, having the read and acting on the read are way different. Lets say you bring in a suited A multiway in last position, the flop comes disjointed, only one person shows interest, you put them on TPTK. Now, your read is accurate, and with no flopped trips, two pair or four flush you are prepared to fold and see if anyone in earlier position plays with him or if he takes it down... but why? TPTK isn't that strong, there is probably an opportunity here to steal it on the turn or on the river. Why not raise him instead, then he when he checks on the turn as 95% of players do, go ahead and steal it.

Having the read is one thing, acting on it is what most people aren't willing to do. Keep in mind the general rule that you can't steal from calling stations and that you CAN steal from better players and then look for places to make that true.