nl hand, first nl experience

I recently played in my first no-limit HE cash game. It was a four-handed home game, with $1-$2 blinds. Two of the other three players were also playing in their first no-limit game, and the other has had a small amount of experience. The experience itself was both educational and interesting. Here is a hand that I have given some thought to (it also ended up being the last hand of the game).


I am in the big blind with Kh-8h. Cutoff folds, button makes it 8 to go. He has $9 left (or close to that) in front of him (had $17 before the hand started). SB calls the remaining 7, and has $40 left (had $48), I call the remaining six, I have player B covered. We take the flop three-handed.


Flop: 3h-3d-5h. SB checks, I check, and the button goes all-in for his remaining $9. SB calls, I call.


Turn: 9d (board 3h-3d-5h-9d). SB thinks for a few seconds, then bets $18. I call.


River: 2h (board 3h-3d-5h-9d-2h). SB shoves his last $11, I call.


As I said before, this was my first time playing no-limit. It was also the first time for the other two players that were in this hand.


Comments and criticism on all streets are welcome and appreciated, results in next post.

Results:


SB asks if I made my hand, I show and know at this point that my hand is good. He shows a five and mucks. Button later tells me he had K-3.


My thoughts:


Pre-flop. Shorthanded with inexperienced no-limit cash game players (but still good players), starting hand selection is something I KNOW I need to learn more about and develop. There had been a lot of blind stealing, and this looked like another attempt. Comments on how my stack size should relate to my play would be helpful here.


The flop. Bet or check here? I checked after SB checked in hope for a free turn, since I did not yet have a made hand. When button pushed-in, there are a wide variety of hands which I think he could have because of his position and the baby card flop. I figure if I make my hand it will be good. When SB called the bet, I know he does not have just two overcards. He has some potential of a hand (flush or more unlikely a straight) or at least a pair to go with the threes, if not another three. Once again I think that my hand will be good if I get there.


The turn. Blank for me. After SB thinks a few seconds and bets $18, I know he has at least a pair to go with the threes. I don't think he is drawing to anything. He wants me out of the pot with this bet, so again I figure again that my flush will be good if I hit. A smaller bet if any bet at all would indicate a much more powerful hand such as trips or a big pair or a full house. I did not think the thinking on this hand went to the point where he would make a large bet to indicate an attempt to buy-out the pot. I think he puts me on a draw. With this board and the size of the pot, I just call, since I don't see him folding if I push him in for his last $11.


The river. I made my hand, I am pretty confident I win. I think his betting of his last $11 is a final attempt to kick me out of the pot, which would not happen at this point.


Once again, comments and criticism are welcome and appreciated.

Preflop: I'd fold. You can't make much money from the button, and the small blind isn't likely to put a lot of chips in with an all-in player in the pot. I don't think you'll make enough when you hit to justify calling the raise preflop, even though you're getting 3-1 on your money. K8s stands a good chance of being dominated or making a second-best hand.


Flop: Easy call, IMHO.


Turn: You're getting odds of 69-18, just under 4-1. This isn't quite good enough to draw at your flush, but you have to consider the implied odds as well.

Your opponent made a strange bet--why wouldn't he just move in for $29? In fact, why would he bet at all considering there's an all-in player? No good player would be bluffing in this spot. Against some players, I would be very worried about a full house here. Against typical, relatively inexperienced NL players though, I'd be fairly certain I was drawing live. But I'd still give my opponents trips, which means I might have fewer than 9 outs. Then again if he does have trips and I suck out, I'm likely to pick up an extra $11 on the river. I think, all things considered, I'd fold if I had any respect for this player at all. But if he doesn't understand things like betting into a dry side pot, I would call. Against that kind of player I could have as many as 15 outs.


River: Automatic call


Looking forward to reading the results!


Matt

Well, I have a lot of thoughts. First, with the button betting out and the SB calling, I wouldn't take a ride for that sort of price. He is overbetting the pot quite a bit, and with a caller, Kxs is pretty marginal. Also, you're very unlikely to have a clear best hand after the flop. If you hit a king, you're outkicked. If you make a flush, you have to fear the Ah. If you hit nothing, you've paid a high price on Kxs, and it is quite possible that if the button feels people hit nothing he may move in on nothing but an ace or such. Will you want to call? Anyhow, I'd have passed. There are better hands to defend with. If their calling requirements are as low as their raising requirements, then with bets that size, fold up, and then punish them with raises of your own when you get a hand.


On the flop, when it is bet, you are getting odds to draw to your flush IF your flush is the best hand. However, with both of them still in, it is possible again you are drawing dead. Axh will crush you, and if someone happened to have pocket 3s or 5s in the hole, you're drawing dead. You'd think this is unlikely, but of course, those are the pots that you can really win big with. The button probably wouldn't lead if he flopped with those, but the SB could. Of course, if I were the SB, I'd have tried to raise you out of the pot on the flop.


On the turn, you don't really quite have odds to draw on the flush, especially since one of your outs will almost certainly leave you with 2nd best hand (9h). However, it is marginal and with the implied odds of getting his last $11, you can do it. I'd have certainly called on the flop and turn at this point.


Obviously on the river you call. You made your hand and you're probably good, barring Axh, or 99 or 55, since 35, 39, 32 aren't much in the way of starting hands with the raising going on.


One thing I've learned in my own big bet play, which is a sort of PL/NL blend (because ppl overbet the pot and you have to call it down if you want to keep it limited at pot size), is that you don't really want to get involved with 3rd/4th/etc best hands. Now, in your case, with your stack sizes, you were already stuck for the $8, it sounds like. But let's say the same $8 was bet, but everyone had $200 in front of them. You're now drawing to a hand that may be dead, and Axs is a very playable hand in a shorthanded game. One funny thing is you can see almost any flop for a small bet (if you had $200 and played 1-2, you might call as much as $5-10 preflop) if your opponents are the type who will pay you off (like you hold 6-7, flop 5-8-9, and JJ-AA will still totally roll for their whole stack), but you really don't want to be drawing dead. Don't draw for straights and flushes against a paired board. Don't try to the gimp end of the straight or the weak flush, because that's the easy way to lose your whole stack. Meanwhile, in BB poker, smaller pocket pairs can really go up in value. If you hold 55 and the flop is AA5, you're taking the man with AK for a ride. If the board doesn't pair, you get a great chance to wipe him out.


Obviously, had the flop been 33A or 33K instead of 335, you

should probably toss your hand. Anyhow, good luck getting into the game.

I have an error (somewhat major?) in my first post. This was in hour 13 of a 13 hour session, so my memory had to be refreshed by another player. I must have been dead tired at this point because I forgot how I played my own hand.


On the flop I bet out $10 and the button went all-in for his remaining $1, he had $19 before the hand started, and the SB called and I called the remaining $1. Other than that the play was the same.

I pretty much agree with what has been said.


I would have folded preflop and on the turn. Like others have said the money is not deep enough to make it worth while.


One thing I would like to add. If I were you guys, I would lower the blinds a lot. Having a stack of 48$ is not enough for blinds that size. Even more with under 20$ in front of you. The thing is that you are essentially committed to the pot with 20$ in front if you put 8$ preflop. Even with 50$, it is not enough to have room to maneuver. Your implied odds go out the window since there is not enough money in play with 1-2$ blinds.


The game, if played well, should become a move all-in preflop game, which is a lot more luck oriented, and of course, less fun.


I would recommend to lower your blinds to say, 25 and 50 cents. That way you would have 40x the BB if you had 20$ which is not much, but ok. If you could make it 10-25 cents blinds, it would be even better. Or bring more $$$ to the table.


No-limit is essentially a game of implied odds, with 1-2 blinds and stacks of 50$ and less, implied odds are pretty much nil.


Good luck and post more hands when you feel like doing so.


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

I played in this game, and I don't think that there was anything wrong w/ the blinds. By the time we were done there was about $350 chips between 4 people so 1-2 blinds weren't that bad once more money got on the table. Just a comment. Jeff I thought you played it well, except I would of raised a lot on the flop especially with the tempo of the game.


Sheck

With blinds of 1 and 2$, each player should have around 200$ minimum to be a good game. In his post, hero said that there was a player with 48$ and 2 below 20$, I am sorry but that is just not enough.


This would mean a typical preflop raise to 6-8$ and then the 20$ stacks are pretty much committed. If they want to reraise, they have to move in and they are offering a reasonable price to worse hands to come in since they won't be able to reraise enough.


Ray Zee just said that a deep stack would be 100x to 300x the BB in an above post. You don't have to believe me.


With lesser stack sizes, you can still play, but you are losing the whole point of implied odds and stack sizes if all you can do is shove your stack in when you raise. If you raise less, then you are giving worse hands a too good price.


Good luck,


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)