JJ overcards with 3 spades on the flop

[Relentless]

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed)

MP1 ($33.25)
MP2 ($99.75)
MP3 ($110)
CO ($332.50)
Button ($29.25)
SB ($97)
BB ($97)
UTG ($125)
Hero ($58)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, Hero calls $1, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $1, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes.

Flop: ($4) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, MP2 calls $4, BB folds.

Turn: ($12) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets $10</font>, MP2 calls $10.

River: ($32) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets $20</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $52
<font color="green">Main Pot: $32, won by MP2.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $20, between MP2, MP3 and SB.</font>


Was my fold correct here?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

Prolly a good fold on the river. Why didn tyou raise preflop? I always RFI w/ JJ.

[Relentless]

Sometimes I raise and sometimes I don't, JJ always confuses me. In UTG+1 though I usually just call and hope my JJ hits a set or is an overpair.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

I understand. IMHO i think TT and JJ are the hardest hands to play in full ring NL. If i am first is the pot, or if there is 1 limper i usually raise. It plays well in 2-3 way pots. In huge mutli-way pots i limp and play it for set value. Im not sure what others think, but try to raise it UTG a few times. See how it goes.

TT i only raise from LP in smaller pots.

[Relentless]

Should I make a bigger bet on the Turn to help shut him out of the pot or was the $10 a good number, it was a pot bet.

[Jonny]

Play on all streets is correct IMO

[JohnG]

He came from 3 opponents on the flop. If he didn't have you beat on the turn, he had you on the river. What hands are going to make it to the river and then bet, that you have beat? Any hand you have beat is most likely to check, and I doubt he was calling along with a draw that can now be bluffing. Given the action, and the paired board, it is unlikely any river bet will be from a bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
Should I make a bigger bet on the Turn to help shut him out of the pot or was the $10 a good number, it was a pot bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting more than the pot is not a common thing. Only a few real reasons to do so. Pot is the usual bet amount to make, and you need a specific reason to bet more or less.

Here, I would have bet less than the pot. Mainly due to texture of the flop and the scare card falling on the turn. Say 1/2 to 2/3. Maybe only 1/3. Much as I would when holding a much bigger hand in this spot. It protects your hand just as much, given the nature of the board (what is there to draw to that may not already be drawing dead), and it does not give away the strength of your hand. The opponent is still guessing whether you are strong or weak despite the smaller bet. The smaller bet also allows you to risk less when you are weak. You will probably only get called when beat, so can check-fold the river.

[Relentless]

Well, aren't I supposed to bet the pot to not give him odds on calling for the flush draw? Betting $3 or $5 on the turn instead of $10 would seem to be giving him odds to call, no?

[pdubz]

I don't like the river check ... you have a J-high flush, and there is a possibility it might be good. With 32$ in the pot, I think you would be willing to call a 10$ bet -- so why not bet 10$ yourself? Unless he has the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif/K/images/graemlins/spade.gif I don't think he can reraise you -- and if he does reraise you, you can throw your hand away.

I mean, I agree, I think you are probably beat here, but by checking you are essentially just pushing the entire pot to his stack. By leading each street, and then shutting down on the river, you've voluntarily built the pot up and are now announcing you disliked the river, and have no high spades. They now know a river bet has a very good chance of taking down the pot, so that 20$ bet is perfect for ANY possible hand he has.

I think, you have to make a painful but necessary bet.

However, I find it hard to understand what your opponent has besides a monster. I think to believe you are behind on the river, you have to believe you've been behind on every street. The flat call on two streets makes me think he flopped a high spade flush, otherwise the turn call was really ugly. I guess top pair with the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif is possible.

I realize a lot of this stuff sounds waivering, and that even a 10$ bet on the river seems ill-advised. I'm not sure about what the best course of action on the river is either.

I think leading for pot on the turn left you in a tight spot, unless he folded.

After thinking it through, I believe check-calling down may have been best.

[Relentless]

Ya, I agree with you in that I should have bet something like 5 or 10 on the river because I would have called it had he bet.

You say he has a monster the whole time or just on the river with the high flush?

I don't think he would play trips like this or two pair, there would be a raise somewhere from him I would think. I think he was chasing the high flush and made it on the river.

[styleish]

I think betting $10 is fine here. He's not getting odds to call anyway if he does have a higher spade, so you're making money.

[pdubz]

Sorry, my post was just a train of my thought process -- it was pretty jumbled up. After having thought it all through, my suggestion of check-calling is pretty bad too. I think your play is fine -- just try and stop his bet on the river by betting $5/$10. If he reraises you you know you are beat, and hopefully he will just call with K/Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif or maybe even worse.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, aren't I supposed to bet the pot to not give him odds on calling for the flush draw? Betting $3 or $5 on the turn instead of $10 would seem to be giving him odds to call, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. If you bet say $4 or $5 and he does draw to the flush, he does not have the odds to draw, given that he may already be drawing dead, and that you should not be putting in any more money should the flush hit. It is also a difficult spot for him to bluff a busted flush draw on river, or indeed to even bet should the draw hit.

2. If you had a full house here, wouldn't you love the flush draw to call a half pot bet rather than fold to a bigger one?

3. You may also already be beat on the turn, so would prefer to risk less whilst avoiding being bluffed if you just checked.

Given that when you have a big hand, you want hands that are drawing dead to call your bet or raise you on the turn. Given that when you are not so strong and could very well already be beat, you want to minimise your risk on the turn, whilst avoiding being bluffed if you check. And given that a smaller bet will still not be giving the odds for your opponent to draw to the flush, thus still protecting your hand. A smaller bet makes sense to me regardless of how strong or weak you are in these situations.

Once your turn bet gets called, you are either beat already, or just got outdrawn on the river. Most likely already beat on the turn against most players. Betting the river is just giving your money away, unless your opponent can fold quite a few hands that have you beat. As far as I can see, your river bet only gets called when beat, and all hands worse than yours, that fold to your bet, would not have bet had you checked.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Ya, I agree with you in that I should have bet something like 5 or 10 on the river because I would have called it had he bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think that would be a mistake. Should you check, no hand worse than J hi flush is making a bet into a paired board with 4 spades out. Calling a bet here would seem extremely loose. You have about the worse hand you can for your betting.

Do you think you can be in there against someone that was calling your turn bet with a 7-to-10 hi 1 card flush draw on a paired board that has now decided to bet the river after he hits the flush and you check?

Do you think a made 7-to-10 hi flush draw on the flop would decide to bet the river after you check?

Do you think top pair would make it to the river and then bet after you check?

What exactly can have made it to the river, that now bets after you check, that a J hi 1 card flush on a paired board can beat?

[Tilt]

I think your opponent has either a high flush draw or a straight and flush draw (9 spades, 7o). Would he be loose enough to call preflop with that? If you had raised preflop you might have scared these hands away and know better. I would rule out a trips/full house from any good player. A pair of 8's isn't calling the flop here (unless its also a high flush draw), and a hidden set has to raise you on the flop against the flushy board.

I think your flop and turn bets are fine, but this is a tough river. I think you have three options:

1) Check fold. Probably my play here.
2) Small- medium bet. Here you are hoping he just calls with something you beat. I can't see how he folds to it given prior rounds and pot size. So, I don't like it - I think you get called almost everytime and you will be beat 75%+.
3) Push. Very, very risky. Probably -EV. But worth considering, because with the board paired he has to be afraid that his flush falls to a boat. And your bets on earlier streets support a full house. Unless he has an A high flush, he should fold.

[Relentless]

What do you think he would have to allow him to bet 20?

I would think it would be the Ace high flush that he got on the river, a flopped flush of not sure what, or a low flush pushing me off my flush?

[pdubz]

The point is against a good player, your bet/bet/check announces your displeasure with the river card, and unless you have a tricky table image, they can bet $20 with any spade in the belief that their hand is good. I agree you can't bet with red jacks, but the point here is you have the J/images/graemlins/spade.gif and want a showdown.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think he would have to allow him to bet 20?

I would think it would be the Ace high flush that he got on the river, a flopped flush of not sure what, or a low flush pushing me off my flush?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any two cards once you checked. I think once you check the river tells you nothing.

I think you can guess from the turn call that he has a good flush. Likely better than a J. That is why I don't like making a small - mid bet at the river. Its going to get called by any flush because of pot size. And if 75% of the time you are beaten by a higher flush then that extra bet is - EV.

For a river bet to have +EV it has to be big enough to make a K or a Q high flush fold some percentage of the time. So it has to be very big. All-in, otherwise check fold I think.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
The point is against a good player, your bet/bet/check announces your displeasure with the river card, and unless you have a tricky table image, they can bet $20 with any spade in the belief that their hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good player thinking their 'any spade' hand is good does not mean they will bet the river after you check. In order to bet, they need to think it will show a profit. As you say they think their hand is good, they will need to think the bet can be called by a number of worse hands. That's unlikely to happen on such a scary board, and they likely check behind you and show it down.

However, I would think a good player passively making it to the river and ending up with just an 'any spade flush' is an unlikely event in this spot.


The player with JJ bet a 3 flushed, paired board on the turn, and got called. It's time to slow down. It's time to realise that a J hi 1 card flush on the river is very likely to be no good when someone bets. Many more hands that bet the river have you beat rather than are beat by you. If by some miracle, you are bluffed off the best hand in this situation, then congratulations to the opponent. They either own you, or they suck and will give you the money back with interest.

If a player cannot check with the intention of folding this hand on the river, then they must be highly profitable to play against. Though they may be proud that they never get bluffed.

PS. Another thing to note in this hand is that on a 3 flush flop the opponent called a pot bet with 3 players to act behind him and a small pot. He is unlikely to be calling to make some kind of play on a later street. He is likely to have something pretty good, and maybe even the actual nuts at that point. His actions on every street are congruent with a typical player flopping the nut flush.

[Dan_Chipman]

This is exactly why a raise pre-flop would have paid off. Think about it - had you raised a proper amount then, you would not be giving the suited connectors a chance to limp. Therefore, regarding the spades and the chase the only hand you need worry about are A /images/graemlins/spade.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif or A /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif and unless the the call came from a late player, those hands will often re-raise pre-flop to try and isolate. Also K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif is a possiblility. In these 3 cases, and only these cases, you will fear the flush on the flop. Had you raised pre-flop and bet the pot on the flop, you would eliminate the pot odds for a chase to the last /images/graemlins/spade.gif if he was holding AK or AQ and only one of them was a /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Having that said, you can safely fold to a raise on the flop, or if he just calls you will probably have to check-fold the turn because he has you beat w/ AA KK QQ and especially if one of them is a /images/graemlins/spade.gif or if he flopped a set, still only possible to know if he had to call a raise pre-flop, and now improved to a boat on the turn.

All things considered, you sort of set yourself up for confusion by not raising in the first place. For all you know, he limped w/ A /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif or has something even better. Remember, AT LEAST top pair along w/ flush draw is the only thing that would lagitimize the flop call for him unless he is sneaky and was just waiting to take the pot away from you /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Chaostracize]

I agree with pdubz with this one. As soon as I read it I said, 10 dollar blocking bet. You will only get raised by MAYBE a king or an A, and you MIGHT get a Q to fold, an dT or lower to call.

Plus, you will not lose this one to a bluff so you can fold safely to a raise.


JMO

[stackm]

Maybe it's just me...but aren't you guys giving the other player a bit too much credit here? This is Party $1 NL, not exactly a game with a ton of pros. You've never seen people call big bets with a ten or lower flush? You don't think an idiot player with a pair of eights might call the flop, and then the turn with trips? Just seems like you may be overrating the level of play at these levels.

[rickr]

Here's my 2 cents. Ask yourself what you were trying to accomplish with your slowplaying the jacks. Stealth, right? Your looking for set value without anyone putting you on a set. You've got very little invested in the pot. The flop is scary. Check call it down and fold to any resistance. Especially in NL, don't try to force. It will bite you. If you honestly felt you had the best hand on the turn with 2 pair, push it all in. Put the pressure on you opponent.(though in this case I wouldn't recommend it) The advantage of NL is fold equity. You set a trap. If it doesn't look right, bail. I like limpning late with all kinds of monsters at times. But when you do this, plan to fold some really nice hands to bad flops. Just the nature of slowplaying.

Later,
Rick

[Wayfare]

I think a $15 blocking bet on the end is in order. You may even get the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif to fold, but only if you are playing against me. If you are raised it's a no brainer fold.