How do you play this hand? Set on the turn.

[j0n_blayze]

Zero reads. Average 5/10 table leaning towards LAG. Comments on all streets appreciated. Results to come.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $7.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (20.80 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (16.40 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (25.40 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 28.40 BB

[Yobz]

I would cap the turn, I think you played the rest the same way I would (not saying that I would play this right, though)

[ThePimpulator]

May be i should just shut my 3/6 mouth because pehaps I missed something, but what do you think you might be behind to on the turn? 46? 68? I know he posted but could he also have 2pair, top pair w/ flush draw, or a set? I think you have to cap the turn.

[edthayer]

I don't 3-bet this pre-flop out of the BB. You have bad position, and you need a very favorable flop to win. I call the raise, and prepare to checkraise a good flop, and fold if the flop is scary.

[brassnuts]

Anyone else inclined to c/r the river, considering the button just called? Unless, you have a read on him not betting made hands.

[cnfuzzd]

I only 3 bet this preflop if i think it will isolate the OR, which probably isnt likely at this table. however, i am somewhat timid with the mid pockets. Also, i cap the turn. You more likely than not have the best hand, but there are just enough cards that can turn me into a fuzzy bunny on the river that i dont think a stop n go is a good idea.

peace

john nickle

[PassiveCaller]

I'm guessing you tried to thin the field with the 3-bet but it just didnt work out? I don't know what type of yields such a move would get against this field but if you expected to reduce the field this isnt that bad of an idea.

Flop is fine. You have a gigantic pot and it's time to do what it takes to win it and thin things out.

On the turn.. I'd cap and then slow down on the river since theres some cards that definitely will slow you down like a diamond.

[j0n_blayze]

If 4+ people are in PF I usually go for a cap with a medium/big pair PF. Why? Cause I want everyone to call to showdown if i catch my set... even more profitable when it turns into a boat. I would NOT cap PF with something like 98s or AJs because this I with the pair i can just release it easily at flop.. with the big draws I usually have to pay to the river. So is this wrong?

[Evan]

Are you kidding here? Cap the turn!!!! If someone happens to have one of those ridiculous straights than good for them (and you still have 10 outs). I guess the diamond scared you on the river, but it certainly doesn't look like anyone had a flush, unless the CO had A7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, since his flop play wouldn't make any sense with any other flush draw. The button probably has AA-QQ maybe JJ or TT if he's super aggro. Basically what I'm getting at here is that you have a river value bet IMO, if it gets raised behind you then call and hope.

[daveymck]

[ QUOTE ]
If 4+ people are in PF I usually go for a cap with a medium/big pair PF. Why? Cause I want everyone to call to showdown if i catch my set... even more profitable when it turns into a boat. I would NOT cap PF with something like 98s or AJs because this I with the pair i can just release it easily at flop.. with the big draws I usually have to pay to the river. So is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

In big pots you do not want 4 people to call down to the river whether you hit your set or not. I dont understand capping with medium pairs like 88-99, what hands do you beat that people are 3 betting with, whats your action if you dont hit your set? chances are the pot is big that you are committed to it and are wasting bets on the later streets as well as preflop.

Personally with these medium pairs I want to see the flop before I start going mad with them, yes raise preflop to isolate/thin the field as appropriate but apart from that it just seems like money down the drain as there are not many flops you are going to like with these hands.

[HajiShirazu]

You really missed bets on the turn. You're good almost every single time there. Cap and lead the river always.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
If 4+ people are in PF I usually go for a cap with a medium/big pair PF. So is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Unless you have 6+ callers, you're cutting your implied odds. Arguably putting in the first raise with 4 others builds a nice pot, you can make up for the losses post-flop and sometimes peel one (or better yet take a free card.) 3-betting here is just spewing chips.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
If 4+ people are in PF I usually go for a cap with a medium/big pair PF. Why? Cause I want everyone to call to showdown if i catch my set... even more profitable when it turns into a boat. I would NOT cap PF with something like 98s or AJs because this I with the pair i can just release it easily at flop.. with the big draws I usually have to pay to the river. So is this wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a pocket pair, its 8.3:1 that you will flop a set. If you are counting on floping a set or some other reasonable hand, implied odds justify playing it with fewer than 8 players. Each raise that goes into the pot preflop has the effect of crushing your implied odds so you want to avoid that.

Sometimes its ok to raise with small/medium pocket pairs preflop. One reason is to tie people to the pot if you flop your set. Thats an expense therefore you don't want to pay it needlessly. If people are calling all the way anyways, you do not need to raise to tie people to the pot.

Another reason is to buy the button and possibly a free look at the turn. Getting a chance to look at the turn for free add a lot of value to your hand.

I think you were wrong to 3 bet pre flop. You are crushing your own implied odds. You have no chance of buying the button or an option of seeing the turn for free. The buttons raise was likely enough to tie people to the pot.

Stu

[fayte]

I dont understand why raising pre-flop crushes your implied odds?

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont understand why raising pre-flop crushes your implied odds?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say you have 22 late middle position.

Five people see the flop for 1 bet each. You only need to collect 3 more small bets on the flop, turn, and river in order to make your price for flopping a set. Anything you collect above your price is profit.

Suppose five people see the flop for 4 bets each. Now you have to collect 12 more small bets on the flop, turn, and river in order to make your price for flopping the set.

Its harder to collect 12 small bets on the flop, turn and river than it is to collect 3 small bets. When you only have to collect 3 more small bets, the set of 2s will begin to turn a profit at an earlier point in the progession of the hand.

Stu

[fayte]

Cheers, i think i understand.

What was confusing me was that the ratio of bets is still the same. 5 people put in 1 bet or five put in 4 bets. your ratio is still the same.

With these hands i would never 4 bet for 22 in LP (im new tho so dont take my advive) I want to get lots of people to see the flop (1 raise fine) So i can see if I flop a set. 22 is not going to win unimproved(i assume) so if you dont hit the set then i would fold.

Is this thinking right?
Cheers for the reply! (now for lunch...........)

[bernie]

Another reason to 3 bet is to maybe cut down the field and get the pot shorthanded or HU with an LAG. He may also have the best hand here.

99 is much better than 22. The table is LAG he said, so it may also be 3 bet/capped behind him. If it's like that, he should get more than enough action if he flops a set to make up for his odds if he's behind preflop. He only needs 6 Big bets postflop. With 4 opponents leaning on LAG...

b

[Tapped Out in NYC]

Preflop: I think I flat-call here, unless you think 3-betting will rid of the players that called one bet.

Flop: Looks good.

Turn: Cap it. What could button and CO have that beat you. It's unlikely they have 4-6 or 6-8. Button prob has an overpair (AA, KK) and it looks like CO has a smaller set.

River: CAP!!!!

IMO, you lost some major BBs here.

[Stu Pidasso]

[ QUOTE ]
Another reason to 3 bet is to maybe cut down the field and get the pot shorthanded or HU with an LAG. He may also have the best hand here.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. If he could get it heads up against a LAG with 99 it would be a coup. In this case he would not have to worry about hurting his own implied odds because he would no longer be playig it as a speculative hand.

Somewhere in this thread our hero says he likes to cap pocket pairs with 4+ opponents in order to tie those opponets to the pot in case he flops a set or full house. I think that is misguided.

Stu

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Somewhere in this thread our hero says he likes to cap pocket pairs with 4+ opponents in order to tie those opponets to the pot in case he flops a set or full house. I think that is misguided

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Sounds a little hellmuthian to me. He may also tie himself to the pot or fold incorrectly postflop doing this that much.

This assumes that they will in fact tie themselves to the pot. I'd have to have experience with the players before really factoring that in for jamming small/mid pairs regularly preflop. Even then, i'd do it very sparingly. I can't see myself doing that even close to routinely.

It'd likely have to be a maniacal table where im playing from the flop and it's likely to get capped preflop anyways with lots of callers. It doesn't really matter who caps it on those, as you know it's going to be capped even as the cards are still being dealt. But that's a different scenario.

On this one, since the raise is on your direct right, if i remember it right, i, personally, hate coldcalling in that spot. If im coldcalling i want some player(s) in between or the button behind me with limpers in front.

b

[kurosh]

I don't understand the flop play, could someone explain why it's correct? With the action PF and on the flop, why don't you consider if someone has an overpair or a flush draw? You would have 2 clean outs at best, at worst 1. Even with the pot that big, the odds seem bad.