Internet poker and taxes and moving abroad.

[rerazor]

I know this has been covered and I've read the posts, but I have some rather detailed questions and would like to engage in a discussion so I'm starting a new thread.

I am a successful online poker player. I multitable like a madman and play limits where that can pay off without much risk. I am on target to net around 200-300k / year assuming I maintain my work ethic and assuming I haven't been getting incredibly lucky the last few months (let's assume I haven't been). I am pretty familiar with U.S. gambling tax laws. My understanding is to be completely legal, you need to add/subtract losses for every *session*, which in live poker means everytime you take your chips off a table. In online poker this would be almost impossible to keep track of, and since the laws are unclear about the legality of online poker to begin with it's led me to contemplate moving abroad. I know many of you will say "just don't pay the taxes" but I think thats far too risky. The sites can't be compelled by the IRS to give up your histories with them, but I'm not convinced the IRS can't compel YOU to request the histories in case of an audit.

Has anyone here moved abroad for this reason? I'm kind of a loser so this is much more of an option for me that most of you. Again, given our ridiculous tax laws I would have to pay American taxes abroad as well (at a lesser rate I beleive)so I'm even considering giving up my citizenship (yes I'm that much of a loser). A half million untaxed in the next 9-12 months in a country with a standard of living half of the United States would be quite an improvement for me. I haven't done this yet so please don't call me an idiot, I'm looking for information.

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't done this yet so please don't call me an idiot, I'm looking for information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone would think you're an idiot for considering this. I've considered it and I don't win anywhere remotely close to what you're on par to earn.

It'll be nice to see some input from people who have done this. Is there any particular regions you're considering moving to?

[rerazor]

Costa Rica, Latvia, Czech Republic are some places I've looked at a bit. The country will obviously have to have a good internet connection and I don't really want to be kidnapped soon after my arrival so they have to be relatively well off. The Carribean is an option also, but all this is just preliminary until I get more information. Language is of course another issue.

[I Play 2 Ski]

What about Canada, don't they have lax gambling taxes?

[rerazor]

I don't know much about Canada but a country where everything is cheap would be a big plus. But I'm certainly open to it, if in fact none of my income would be taxed it'd prolly jump high on the list.

Another issue that I didn't mention is citizenship requirements, or green cards or whatever. I know some countries like Panama you can buy citizenship for $50k, but i'm not sure if you can just remain stateless or not.

[GrannyMae]

play limits where that can pay off without much risk

mind if i ask what game you play? not looking for a site or other details, just the game.

Has anyone here moved abroad for this reason?

probably crazy to do it only for this. as you stated, you know you have to renounce or change citizenship to avoid the liability anyway. so why not look into dual citizenship? you are suggesting you are very mobile and are doing this for the short term gain of the difference in the income tax. you also seem determined so i will pass on the "be a good citizen and pay your taxes" lecture. i know that dual citizenship is an option in canada, and much of the carribean and CA.

if i were determined to do what you want to do, i would probably explore if a place like costa rica offers dual citizenship, then check the irs laws regarding income made from your new residence. if you happen to get an answer on tax liability for dual citizens, please post the info here.

[JAque]

Is there a way to do this without marriage? I will assume he will breaking the law of that country if he just does it for that reason. No that he will get caught, just the principle.

[GrannyMae]

Is there a way to do this without marriage?

i have friends that have dual canada/us citizenship. they went there to work, and loved it. they did not want to renounce, so they got dual.

also, many property owners in hollywood florida are canadians that have dual. there are many ways to get it that would seem to the irs as innocent. as far as costa rica, i would buy a condo with 2% down if i needed a reason to apply for dual. i would live there 6 months a year and sell it when the poker party was over.

edit: my friends that did this in canada went first as a visitor, then applied within a month for a work visa then did what they needed to for the dbl. citizenship.

[JAque]

Are you saying you can get a DC with a work visa in 6 months? I imagine you mean Costa Rica. I doubt in Canada you get one so fast, do you know?

JAque

[gabyyyyy]

[ QUOTE ]
I know this has been covered and I've read the posts, but I have some rather detailed questions and would like to engage in a discussion so I'm starting a new thread.

I am a successful online poker player. I multitable like a madman and play limits where that can pay off without much risk. I am on target to net around 200-300k / year assuming I maintain my work ethic and assuming I haven't been getting incredibly lucky the last few months (let's assume I haven't been). I am pretty familiar with U.S. gambling tax laws. My understanding is to be completely legal, you need to add/subtract losses for every *session*, which in live poker means everytime you take your chips off a table. In online poker this would be almost impossible to keep track of, and since the laws are unclear about the legality of online poker to begin with it's led me to contemplate moving abroad. I know many of you will say "just don't pay the taxes" but I think thats far too risky. The sites can't be compelled by the IRS to give up your histories with them, but I'm not convinced the IRS can't compel YOU to request the histories in case of an audit.

Has anyone here moved abroad for this reason? I'm kind of a loser so this is much more of an option for me that most of you. Again, given our ridiculous tax laws I would have to pay American taxes abroad as well (at a lesser rate I beleive)so I'm even considering giving up my citizenship (yes I'm that much of a loser). A half million untaxed in the next 9-12 months in a country with a standard of living half of the United States would be quite an improvement for me. I haven't done this yet so please don't call me an idiot, I'm looking for information.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please leave.

Enjoy the abundance of smelly people and bad water!

[Buffel]

Just a question you are assuming to win 200k a year based on a few months playing? You are multitabling, which limit, which games are you playing?
I think that to gaine that amount on a consistent basis on the internet you must play a very high limit and you must be extremely good.
Are you aware that the swings are big?
Are you a strong proven winning player in the card rooms?
Do you play already a long time?
I am just amazed by the the very high wins you expect.
Is there someone ho has those winning figures over a long periode on the internet and at which limit?

[GrannyMae]

no, it took about 4 years before they could even be heard in canada, and it was very expensive as well. they spent a fortune on a barrister there and it was still a pain.

that's why i was suggesting CR. i would imagine CR would be very accomodating to this. the point was that the IRS would just be told: "i went there on vacation and loved it, so decided to live there and work there 6 months of the year"

the smaller countries would have a much faster timeline than canada.

[Rudbaeck]

I seem to recall someone mentioning that New Zeeland was tax free for gambling. It's a beautiful place to live, but far from cheap.

But I managed to be wrong about my own countries tax laws up until quite recently, so don't listen to me.

[Jimbo]

Anyone else here think it is truly remarkable that these people come on here making a 300,000 dollars a year and cannot figure out how to either go to the IRS website or hire a frigging attorney?

No matter where you live or whether or not you renounce your citizenship if the IRS determines (at it's own discretion) that you did so in order to avoid paying taxes, guess what? You still owe the US government tax for the next ten years.

You had better find a country without an extradition treaty or else you will have a big tax bill and your own personal cell in a Federal prison.

For a mere $50K I'll provide a link to the pertinent statute and save you some time behind bars.

Jimbo

[JAque]

I am not sure about this but if you become a permanent resident in another country (meaning you claim you are planning to reside/work for a long time), I don't believe that the tax burden should be much as you are already paying the taxes of that country. You need to check with and Internatioanl law attorney as agreements differ form country to country and the US and the difference between a work visa and a residence may affect this. The point is you don't have to give up your US citenship if your are flexible.

[Jimbo]

rerazor got lucky because in 1996 the 10 year rule was modified somewhat but it does come with a small caveat:

[ QUOTE ]
Congress passed a provision in the 1996 immigration law that held that anyone who relinquished their citizenship for the purpose of avoiding taxes would be barred from coming back to the U.S. - even to visit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jimbo

So no jail time but do not plan on visiting Mommy anytime soon either. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Instinct]

In Canada, gambling winnings are not taxed.

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
In Canada, gambling winnings are not taxed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to avoid some confusion with American readers, this is not entirely correct. True, if you go hit a B&M and you win $50,000 for example, none of that is taxed. You don't have to fill out any forms or all that nonsense. What you do with that money is up to you.

When you play online, there's a money trail which leads you to your bank if you use neteller for example. I'm currently in a situation that I make more from my poker winnings than I do from my employment. I will have to file all my poker earnings on my tax return because not reporting the six figure income I make from poker would be way too risky. They will deem me a professional gambler whether I like it or not and will have to pay taxes on that.

As much as it pains me to pay my taxes on my poker winnings as a Canadian, the consequences of not doing so will most likely pain me more. It's always best to talk to a tax attorney for advice before you even think about not paying taxes on your online winnings. --- Don't shoot the messenger---

[rerazor]

"So no jail time but do not plan on visiting Mommy anytime soon either. "

What the hell is your problem? Your posts have been mildly informative but why the attitude? I HAVE gone to the IRS website and I have also read about the laws you speak of. My understanding is that both the "no visit" and the 10 year laws both have no teeth, IE they don't have the resources to enforce them. What I'm looking for is people who have actually done it and what their experiences have been. Once I got that preliminary information I would seek out an attorney to finalize my plans.

I'm guessing your anger comes from me being a "tax dodger"..why should I stay and pay taxes on something Congress is hypocritically trying to make illegal? Theoretically all my winnings could be siezed at any time. I don't mind paying my fair share, but the tax laws are so skewed against online poker I probably owe more than I've won.

[rerazor]

"mind if i ask what game you play? not looking for a site or other details, just the game."

200 nl right now. I play a lot of them though =) I know people will give me [censored] about my claims, it's really not important to me that they're believed. Whether I'm prepared for the move is up to me.

The dual citizenship thing is interesting, I will definitely explore that option. Obviously I will be consulting with professionals before I make the jump.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell is your problem? Your posts have been mildly informative but why the attitude?

[/ QUOTE ]

After about the thirtieth newcomer that came on here with the same story it did get a bit tiring. (I readily admit I prefer thses posts compared to the rigged shuffle and conspiracy posts) I apologize for being rude, but after all I never called you an idiot even though you came across as one so I should get a few points for holding back quite a bit on that one. In fact you recognized that in advance as evidenced by your request to not be called an idiot.



[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing your anger comes from me being a "tax dodger"..why should I stay and pay taxes on something Congress is hypocritically trying to make illegal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I don't think too highly of people who took advantage of all the US has to offer while growing up but want to avoid giving anything back as soon as they become somewhat successful.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind paying my fair share, but the tax laws are so skewed against online poker I probably owe more than I've won.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make 300K this year playing online poker or made the same 300K doing brain surgery your tax bill would be (for all practical purposes) the same. If you had no other itemized deductions other than your losses it would cost you a few hundred bucks more in taxes but after all, a brain surgeon adds something to other peoples lives. Most professional online poker players just suck all they can out of anyone they meet so the small potential disparity in taxes is not unreasonable.

[ QUOTE ]
What I'm looking for is people who have actually done it and what their experiences have been.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expect if anyone has done as you are suggesting they are not likely to respond to you on an internet forum. Furthermore anyone that says they have you can probably count on the fact thet you are being mislead.

One last thought, as far as the IRS having enough resources to track you down you might just discover that you are suggesting doing one of the few things that they focus on very carefully. Just ask Al Capone if the IRS has any teeth or not.

Good luck to you at the poker tables and I hope you reconsider paying your fair share.


Jimbo

[Bubu]

Hi,

I believe it is technically illegal to renounce US citizenship for tax purposes. The IRS will still consider you a US citizen for the last ten years prior as a US and might prosecute you. I don't know how aggressively they will do this - will they try to extradiate you ? Maybe you will be safe as long as you don't return to the US.

If you live abroad it might be easier to hide your gambling income from the IRS. However, it seems that the present trend is for the US and other foreign governments to pressure international banks to release information relevant to tax evasion investigations. Recently many tax havens have had to yield to international (mainly US) pressure and release info on their accounts. With developing technology it will only become easier to obtain all these records, so your exposure and risk will increase. For example, I have heard that all US dollar wire transfers (say party to your Carribean bank) have to run through US banks, so the paper trail is there. The sad thing is that loopholes will always be found. The very rich will have the resources to find and exploit them, but you might not. Having said that, maybe your accounts are insignificant enough that they'll fly under the IRS radar...

Now consider your legal options. The US taxes its citizens who reside abroad. As you will also have to pay local taxes this creates a double tax burden. There are tax treaties between various countries and the US to try to overcome this. However my general impression is that you end up paying the higher of the two taxes. If your income qualifies as "foreign earned income" then you can exclude the first 80k or so from US taxes. Gambling income generally does not seem to qualify for this exclusion. However I suspect that if you incorporate you might be able to overcome this. You can also exlcude some of the monies used for housing.

I am quite confused by the legal options. The accountant I spoke to was not too knowledegeable about gambling. As I might be moving abroad and do want to continue playing poker I would appreciate it if anyone could PM some contact info on some international accountant ot tax lawyer who knows about poker issues.

Bubu

[Bubu]

If you are a dual citizen don't you still have to pay your US taxes ?

[mushi]

I can see that you have done a bit of thinking on the subject, nice post

mushi

[rerazor]

"After about the thirtieth newcomer that came on here with the same story it did get a bit tiring. (I readily admit I prefer thses posts compared to the rigged shuffle and conspiracy posts)"

I don't understand what my post and posts about rigged shuffling could possibly have in common.


"Yeah I don't think too highly of people who took advantage of all the US has to offer while growing up but want to avoid giving anything back as soon as they become somewhat successful.......the same. If you had no other itemized deductions other than your losses it would cost you a few hundred bucks more in taxes but after all, a brain surgeon adds something to other peoples lives."

I'm sorry but the US didn't give me much of anything growing up. I could go into details but I won't. Online Poker is technically illegal in America. That is the primary reason I want to leave.

As far as your "few hundred more" burden, let me share with you what I learned on the IRS WEBSITE. Let's say I go onto a shorthanded table and win $1000. That table then closes when my opponent leaves. I then go to another table and promptly lose that $1000. The law states I would owe taxes on that $1000, roughly $400. If the opponent had stayed on the 1st table and I had lost it to him, I wouldn't. That's fair? I don't think it is. If I were simply taxed on the net of my income and it was completely legal I wouldn't even consider leaving.

I should also add that should this funding ban go through it will become extremely difficult to even do this in America.

"I expect if anyone has done as you are suggesting they are not likely to respond to you on an internet forum. Furthermore anyone that says they have you can probably count on the fact thet you are being mislead. "

My real name isn't Rerazor and I didn't give my name when I registered here. Maybe the Patriot Act gives the FBI the power to wiretap me for asking this though, who knows.

[rerazor]

"I believe it is technically illegal to renounce US citizenship for tax purposes. The IRS will still consider you a US citizen for the last ten years prior as a US and might prosecute you. I don't know how aggressively they will do this - will they try to extradiate you ? Maybe you will be safe as long as you don't return to the US. "

Yes I've heard this too. But there are people who've done it, google Mark Mobius...there are others too.

I will be talking to a professional once my Condo is sold. If it turns out there's even a chance of me breaking the law by moving I won't do it.

[elbooneb]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Canada, gambling winnings are not taxed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to avoid some confusion with American readers, this is not entirely correct. True, if you go hit a B&M and you win $50,000 for example, none of that is taxed. You don't have to fill out any forms or all that nonsense. What you do with that money is up to you.

When you play online, there's a money trail which leads you to your bank if you use neteller for example. I'm currently in a situation that I make more from my poker winnings than I do from my employment. I will have to file all my poker earnings on my tax return because not reporting the six figure income I make from poker would be way too risky. They will deem me a professional gambler whether I like it or not and will have to pay taxes on that.


[/ QUOTE ]
Are you sure about that? Doesn't make sense to me since gambling winnings are not taxable. One could easily defend his case about that in a canadian court..Personally i think that there is a legal black hole about online gamling in canada. I might be wrong but i'm pretty confident that there's no laws about the it.

[blendedsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
My understanding is that both the "no visit" and the 10 year laws both have no teeth, IE they don't have the resources to enforce them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to Cat Stevens

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]

As far as your "few hundred more" burden, let me share with you what I learned on the IRS WEBSITE. Let's say I go onto a shorthanded table and win $1000. That table then closes when my opponent leaves. I then go to another table and promptly lose that $1000. The law states I would owe taxes on that $1000, roughly $400. If the opponent had stayed on the 1st table and I had lost it to him, I wouldn't. That's fair? I don't think it is. If I were simply taxed on the net of my income and it was completely legal I wouldn't even consider leaving.


[/ QUOTE ]
If you file as a professional, you can net your losses against your wins on Schedule C and report the result as income. The downside is that you then have to pay self-employment tax, but this could still be more advantageous for you because professionals are allowed to write some other things off that recreational gamblers are not.

[DesertCat]

As far as your "few hundred more" burden, let me share with you what I learned on the IRS WEBSITE. Let's say I go onto a shorthanded table and win $1000. That table then closes when my opponent leaves. I then go to another table and promptly lose that $1000. The law states I would owe taxes on that $1000, roughly $400. If the opponent had stayed on the 1st table and I had lost it to him, I wouldn't. That's fair? I don't think it is. If I were simply taxed on the net of my income and it was completely legal I wouldn't even consider leaving.

I think you've either misread the rules or gotten bad tax advice. Effectively you have two sessions, one generates $1,000 in income, the other $1,000 in deductions. Essentially you should owe zero tax. The complication is that your poker gross bumps up your tax bracket a little before the deductions come through, which could cause your other income to be taxed slightly higher. I've run the scenarios through turbo tax, and it says you will pay basically the same taxes as anyone with a similar net income. My guess is the difference is less than 1%...

[Blarg]

Matt Hilger, author of Internet Texas Hold'em, moved to New Zealand for three years. Canada and England also don't tax gambling winnings, though a Canadian poster above does seem to say something contrary to what has been posted before on these boards(that I've seen anyway) about Canadians not having to pay gambling taxes. Perhaps the issue is whether one does nothing else for income. But some gamblers invest in small businesses and get themselves off the hook as full time gamblers by having nominal "jobs" in their own businesses.

The not paying tax on the first 80k of income if you live outside the country business has applied to gamblers, from what I understand. A poster says he's heard of trouble on that, but I'm not sure that everyone would have trouble on it, and gathered that not everyone does -- or not everyone has, at least in the pasts.

You can avoid an awful lot of tax that way, so it seems a very good alternative to me. Only a few years of doing that would leave one with a reward that would be pretty sizeable for a lot of people. I know I'd be trying it if I got to the stage where I made that much money. You still have to pay self-employment tax though, but you can supposedly avoid even that by incorporating.

Very interesting subject. The hostility you've received here and there just for asking has been entirely inappropriate, and I wish you luck.

[sumdumguy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In Canada, gambling winnings are not taxed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm currently in a situation that I make more from my poker winnings than I do from my employment. I will have to file all my poker earnings on my tax return because not reporting the six figure income I make from poker would be way too risky. They will deem me a professional gambler whether I like it or not and will have to pay taxes on that.
--- Don't shoot the messenger---

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not qualified to give you advice. You're correct that the "business of gambling" in Canada includes not only the operation of a gambling business (tables, machines, or taking bets) but also the placing of bets (sports, blackjack, poker). However, it is not really a function of how much you win, so much as how you go about your gambling. The amount won, does not in itself determine professional status.

A fairly recent decision Epel v Queen, 2003 (http://decision.tcc-cci.gc.ca/en/2003/html/2003tcc707.html) was ruled in favour of the taxpayer (who had substantial winnings). In the reasons for judgement, Justice Campbell distinguishes this case from Luprypa v Canada, 1997 where the ruling went against the tax payer:

[29] In the case of Luprypa v. Canada, [1997] T.C.J. No. 469 Justice McArthur set out at paragraph 13 the criteria necessary to determine whether an individual is engaged in a business of gambling. Those are:

a) He carefully managed the risks.
b) He was a skilled player.
c) He played Monday through to Friday each week.
d) He spent his afternoons playing snooker to perfect his skills.
e) He played inebriated opponents after 11:00 p.m. to minimize his risk.
f) He won most of the time earning, approximately $200.00 daily.
g) He drank alcoholic beverages only on weekends when not playing pool to give him a sober advantage over his inebriated opponents.
h) He was calculating and disciplined.
i) It was his primary source of income and he relied on this steady income.

[30] With respect to these nine items, Epel stated that he attended for the social enjoyment and that if he was losing, he simply left. He drank socially with other players. He did not manage his risk by identifying particularly inept players or inebriated players. There is no evidence to suggest that he attempted to arrange who his opponents would be so that he would have an advantage. He did not attempt to manage or minimize his risk through a calculated method or system. This distinguishes Epel, the habitual (and lucky) gambler, from someone like Turmel, the professional gambler. He was a lucky gambler but not one who worked to perfect his skills. He participated because he enjoyed the game and the social interaction. Turmel testified that he certainly was a quick learner, with a natural ability for the game, who for a time had luck on his side. However Epel was not a skilled player whose focus was to constantly develop and perfect his skills, as Turmel had done. His evidence was that he still considered his business operation to be the shoe repair business and not his gambling activities. The facts support that the Appellant was using his gambling as a form of social entertainment, with the added advantage that he had regular and substantial wins. There is certainly no evidence before me where I could find that he was in any way conducting his gambling activities as a professional calling. Turmel, at the other extreme, gave evidence of the courses he studied, the papers he wrote, the systems he established to win and the rake off portions in a game, in an attempt to develop an edge in predicting his percentage chance of winning any given game.

It's important to understand that Justice Campbell did not overturn a previous ruling, but reaffirmed the "test" that was applied to determine if an individual's gambling winnings was the result of entertainment and recreation or due to engagement in the business of gambling.

I assume your accountant knows what he is doing, but you might want to check with a tax lawyer just to make sure.

[PrayingMantis]

Willing to give up your USA citizenship, so you don't need to pay taxes on your 200-300K/year income, is such a **HUGE** -EV move, that I actually find it hard to believe you're a successful poker player, with that kind of thinking.

And I'm not trying to be rude. It just amazes me how people have zero understanding of the world they live in.

[dink]

NZ is cheap as chips,

as is Aus and we don't pay tax on our winnings!
that is if we can win or get cheques cashed which is not easy in oz I might add. actually I just did add it

[D.H.]

[ QUOTE ]
Willing to give up your USA citizenship, so you don't need to pay taxes on your 200-300K/year income, is such a **HUGE** -EV move... And I'm not trying to be rude. It just amazes me how people have zero understanding of the world they live in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have much understanding of the world I live in, so do you care to explain in more detail what the obvious HUGE -EV is?

[Baulucky]

You need to consider Aruba and/or Curazao, Bonaire, St. Maarten (Dutch side). Excellent communications, english widely spoken, very safe, no taxes.

You would need to get alternate citizenship (not necessarily Dutch) if you do not wish to break US tax laws.

Many wealthy Americans have given up on "The most expensive Passport in the World".

I could go on this topic enough to write several books. Do a google search for PT, "Passing Through", "Previous Taxpayer", etc.

I could also help you to get a legal Third World Country Passport/Citizenship for about $25K total cost. Or you could go about it yourself.

IMO, it's definitely worthy to get on the online poker bandwagon for the amounts you talk tax free for the nest few years.

Good luck.

[PrayingMantis]

USA citizenship, by itself, is worth a lot more, and in many ways, than the taxes he would pay on this income in the coming years. I simply don't see how he is willing to give up on it so easily (regardless if he wants to avoid paying taxes or/and leave the USA, which is a different question. My comment was only in regard to the citizenship issue, which he mentioned.).

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
USA citizenship, by itself, is worth a lot more

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have 2 or 3 other citizenships it (USA citizenship) is more like a liability than an asset, imo. And, for the record, I love the USA, but would never agreee to be a citizen of the USA.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
USA citizenship, by itself, is worth a lot more, and in many ways, than the taxes he would pay on this income in the coming years.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the benefit of being an American citizen? It was a great nation to be a citizen of in 1904. 100 years later I don't see any advantage.

Civil rights, health care, education, crime rate... All worse than in most other western democracies. I'm obviously missing something here.

Ps. This is not a flame starter. It's an honest question about what the previous poster feels are the benefits. Ds.

[I Play 2 Ski]

Have you thought of this:

Move to a state with none to minimal state income tax

Create a LLC for Poker.

Having an LLC allows pass through taxation on your personal tax return.

So now your poker carreer is now a business, so you move to a state that has low state taxes, buy a house. Now you can rent that out and go rent a house say in Vegas for your Poker business which would be tax deductible as well as a company vehicle. Driving to and from the casinos are business expenses. Going out to dinner and talking about Poker is a business expense. Annual Meetings in Fiji. I am sure you get the picture.

Its even better if you create a second business for investments, like Real estate. You should be investing this money somewhere. Buy a house, keep it for 2 years, sell it, no capital gains tax. If you use your poker money to make more money, the tax consequences don't seem so bad.

I don't really think you need to leave the counrty to protect your winnings. A good tax advisor will be able to put you on the path that will allow you to stay here, pay some taxes and yet remain exptremely profitable. That in my opinion is the +EV way to do it.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
If you have 2 or 3 other citizenships

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean the kinds of citizenships you get for a few $K, of countries that hardly exist?

[ QUOTE ]
(USA citizenship) is more like a liability than an asset, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

This might be true only to the few very very rich people. Otherwise, we have a very different understanding of "liability". I live in Israel, for instance. It's far from being a poor place. However, Big percentage of the commercial banners on-line, are by companies who help you get into the yearly USA green-card lottery. Do you know how much money there is only in this *lottery* buisness alone? Israel is only a small place. It is definitely much bigger elsewhere (edit: not in europe, though. But most of 3rd world countries, and others, for sure). Many people are willing to pay all they can for this green card (I'm not even talking about citizenship, which will take people years of struggle to achieve), outside and inside the USA. Many people are making so much money, outside and inside the USA, out of this huge demand. What do you think is the reason for this demand? The "liability" of holding an american passport?

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
You mean the kinds of citizenships you get for a few $K, of countries that hardly exist?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I got 3 European citizenships, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese, one South American citizenship, and a couple other countries of anglosaxon caliber in the "pipeline". I got them all legally, and for a few $100 each.

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think is the reason for this demand? The "liability" of holding an american passport?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. The need for better economic prospects. For example an Indian or Mexican programmer could multiply his income 100 fold by just legally moving to the USA.

Now, you don't need to be super-rich to operate on the level of the super-rich. In fact, one year ago I was jobless in a communist shithole in South America. Today I'm in the same shithole, but my income comes from the internet (poker, bonus whoring, marketing), and tax free. I will stay in this shithole of a country till I dispose of some illiquid assets (real estate) or things turn seriously for the worst, or I save my minimum target $ amount to move to Aruba/Bonaire.

I could not even consider paying 30% of my income to ANY government on this earth.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the benefit of being an American citizen? It was a great nation to be a citizen of in 1904. 100 years later I don't see any advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't want to sound rude, but this is again an example of knowing very little about the world you live in. You don't see any advantage?? Of course, from a Swedish point of view, there's probably not much of an advantage. But the situation in Sweden (as in other countries in Scandinavia, Europe and a very few other places), is _not_ the standard. I'm actually quite amazed I have to say this.

[BradleyT]

It's not like the OP is talking about moving to Ethiopia though. And I doubt anyone in the thread is inferring that either.

So what's the advantage of living in the U.S. vs. the UK or Aruba or Belgium?

[MicroBob]

note - i know virtually nothing about taxes....so it's very possible i could be wrong on everything i'm about to say.
Some of these ideas that I have are based on a combination of things
- that i've picked from the forums
- that I've been advised upon by my dad who is extremely tax knowledgeable but not necessarily regarding gambling
- from the book Gambler's Guide to Taxes by Walter Lewis


I believe that the definition of 'session' is technically in a grey area still.

I believe there are some statutes and interpretations out there that would require you to document each and every bet you make at an online or casino session. just some ridiculous stuff.


I believe that if my intention is to 'multi-table online' for 6 hours and i keep accurate daily-records and am showing as good-faith effort to pay what i owe then I believe I can get away with just counting each day's win/loss total as my session.

let's take B&M as a different example....lets say i'm a professional B&M-only player.
I show up and get on the list for 20/40 and decide to play 10/20 until then.
After an hour or so I leave the table for a couple orbits to hit the rest-room, get a burger, whatever. When I come back the game is broken-up and I'm directed to another 10/20 table.
After another 15 minutes I'm called over to the 20/40 game.

Am I really expected to record each seperate table as a different session in the course of my 2 hours playing on 3 different tables.
It seems to me that just logging the casino-name, date and hours played, and win-loss for the day would be satisfactory for most IRS auditors.


Trying to log each and every online table when you're playing 6 tables at a time would be ridiculous and unnecessary. you're making a good-faith effort to record your wins and losses....if it really hit the fan that would be a significant consideration.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
No. The need for better economic prospects. For example an Indian or Mexican programmer could multiply his income 100 fold by just legally moving to the USA.

[/ QUOTE ]

?? Well, of course. that was my point. I was asking you if it is because of the "liability", only to show you that "liability" is a very strange way to look at it.

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I got 3 European citizenships, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese, one South American citizenship, and a couple other countries of anglosaxon caliber in the "pipeline". I got them all legally, and for a few $100 each.

[/ QUOTE ]

Without knowing much about you (nothing actually), I'd say you are some kind of a crook. I apologize in advance if I'm completely wrong about it, but that's how it looks to me. I know people who are trying to get a EU citizenship, in honest ways, and it is _very_ different from what you describe here, and it is _definitely_ not a question of paying a few hundreds dollars.

[ QUOTE ]
I could not even consider paying 30% of my income to ANY government on this earth.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a feeling you don't understand what is the purpose and meaning of taxes.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not like the OP is talking about moving to Ethiopia though. And I doubt anyone in the thread is inferring that either.

So what's the advantage of living in the U.S. vs. the UK or Aruba or Belgium?


[/ QUOTE ]

Once again, my point was not in regard to moving out of the USA. It was in regard to giving up the USA citizenship. I think some of you don't understand what is the meaning of having / not having a specific citizenship. It isn't necessarily about where you live.

[Bubu]

Your method seems to make the most sense to me. Also one can deduce housing expenses from the US taxes.

How do you find out what in what countries poker is not taxed ? From what I gather here,

NZ,
Australia,
UK,
Canada (if recreational)

are tax free for poker.

Any others to add to the list ?

How about,
Italy ?
Switzerland ?
Japan ?
Spain ?
Germany ?

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
Without knowing much about you (nothing actually), I'd say you are some kind of a crook. I apologize in advance if I'm completely wrong about it, but that's how it looks to me. I know people who are trying to get a EU citizenship, in honest ways, and it is _very_ different from what you describe here, and it is _definitely_ not a question of paying a few hundreds dollars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well. I resent being called a crook and demand a public apology.

My father is Portuguese, my mother Spanish and I'm married to an Italian. I was born in the South American country, and the two anglosaxon countries I've applied for have, currently legal inmigration programs. So, I have just used the normal, legal open options available to me,and it has cost me only a few $100s AND a lot of patience. And yes, I have used them to the fullest.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Well. I resent being called a crook and demand a public apology.

My father is Portuguese, my mother Spanish and I'm married to an Italian. I was born in the South American country, and the two anglosaxon countries I've applied for have, currently legal inmigration programs. So, I have just used the normal, legal open options available to me,and it has cost me only a few $100s AND a lot of patience. And yes, I have used them to the fullest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, I apologize for calling you a crook. But I must say that on your previous post you simply said that you only had to pay a few hundreds dollars to get these passports , without mentioning anything about being entitled to get them for very legitimate reasons (family), and you sure made the impression that it's very easy to get them by paying some small bucks, which is certainly not the case with regard to european passports.

Surely, if you have the legal options, it is possible. For most people it is far from being an option.

[Fluffington]

Is online poker winnings taxed in Israel, and if so, at what rate?

Disclaimer: If I have gotten you mixed up with someone else and you're in fact not israeli, I apologize.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
UK or Aruba or Belgium?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow there is a fair amount of contrast, black-pudding, cocktails and pate. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards Mack

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Is online poker winnings taxed in Israel, and if so, at what rate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there is no specific status to online poker winning. Until recently, all winnings that come out of say, lottery and such, were not taxed.

But now winnings are taxes at a flat 25%, for every individual winning, that is over something like $15K. This actually allows you to claim untaxable winnings from a lot of sessions in which you didn't win over $15K, but then you could be described as a "professional", and as such, your winnings are not "winnings", but regular income, and you have to pay regular taxes. In essence, this is similar to the case with individual stock traders here.

[Bubu]

Could you elaborate on the benefits of being a dual (or multi) citizen as partaining to tax benefits. Some people have suggested that the original poster take up another citizenship in addition to that of the US, but I am not sure how that will reduce his tax liability to the US.

Thanks,

bubu

[Baulucky]

You cannot legally avoid taxes in the US, AND keep your US citizenship/residence. The US is one of the few countries that taxes all its citizens, even if they work and live abroad. It is even a federal crime not to file every year, even if you do not owe any taxes.

I believe that if you want to give up citizenship, you will need also to pay previous (to your give-up) due taxes to stay within the law. There maybe some loopholes still exploitable in this section of the law to legally avoid these taxes, but I do not wish to comment on that.

Of course, after you give up citizenship of any country, such country does not have any claims over your future income. You also lose all your rights as citizen.

The last time I looked, a US citizen living and working abroad was allowed to have up to $75 K per year income tax free. Anything above that was normally taxed. I'm unsure if this is still the case.

[Bubu]

Thanks. I thought I might have been missing something.

Does anyone know how the US tax treaties work ? Is it possible to have to only pay income tax to the country that you are residing in for the monies generated there ? My guess is that you still have to report all your income to the US, and whatever was already taxed abroad can be used as a credit against US tax... I am hoping that;s not the case.

Bubu

[rerazor]

"Create a LLC for Poker."

Haha this is the sort of answer I was looking for. I'm sure this is a guaranteed audit but as long as its legal, anything that keeps my taxes somewhat manageable is a good option.

[I Play 2 Ski]

hey at least you're not renouncing your citizenship. I think the key is finding deductions.

[Self Made]

Matthew Hilger does devote two pages of Internet Texas Holdem to playing poker for a living. He moved to New Zealand and was an internet poker pro there for a while. Now he's back in the US. He does mention "if you are an American citizen and move overseas, you are able to deduct over $80,000 a year from your income since you are not residing in the States." But you must pay FICA and Medicare taxes still. You could chat with him on his forum about this.

About a week ago I saw an article in Forbes about poker. It mentioned the tax treatment. Gross winnings go in other income, line 21 of the 1040. Losses go in miscellaneous deductions on Schedule A, but aren’t subject to a 2% of AGI floor. I suppose you would use a schedule C instead if you gamble for a living... I'm not clear on that.

Some high income people move to Monaco because it has no income tax, e.g. Gus Hansen, F1 drivers, tennis players. I assume it's costly to live there, though. And I don't know if it's any better than any other country if you retain your US citizenship.

Let me point out something obvious: the US does have lower taxes than most countries. That one of the major reasons we're more prosperous.

Advantages of the US: the obvious one is wealth, I agree. It's significantly wealthier than even countries like Sweden.

Another probably obvious point: when reporting gambling winnings, don't mention it's from online gambling. Right now I can only think of one person I've heard of that got in legal trouble for online gambling, and it was because he reported it on his tax return.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
Another probably obvious point: when reporting gambling winnings, don't mention it's from online gambling. Right now I can only think of one person I've heard of that got in legal trouble for online gambling, and it was because he reported it on his tax return.


[/ QUOTE ]

Who was this? Is this an actual case that is a matter of public record, or just what you've heard? Was this guy playing poker (or even casino games), or was he sports betting?

The reason I ask is that much of what I've heard makes it at least improbable, and I want to know if all of this is wrong:
- I have never heard of anyone getting busted for internet poker ever.
- I have only heard of people getting busted for internet gambling when it involved sportsbooks.
- The popular story is that the government is absolutely not allowed to use your tax returns for building a case against you for any crime other than tax evasion. The reason for this is that if the government was allowed to use your tax returns to prosecute you for a crime (whether it is illegal gambling, prostitution, dealing drugs, whatever), it would allow you to refuse to file a tax return on the grounds that you may be incriminating yourself.

[Self Made]

[ QUOTE ]
Who was this? Is this an actual case that is a matter of public record, or just what you've heard?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was reported in the media. Probably a few years ago. I can't cite a source. I think the guy was in Idaho, probably online casino gambling, but that's all I can remember.

Have you heard of someone being prosecuted for sportsbetting online, or are you just referring to people operating online sportsbooks, like Cohen?

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's the benefit of being an American citizen? It was a great nation to be a citizen of in 1904. 100 years later I don't see any advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't want to sound rude, but this is again an example of knowing very little about the world you live in. You don't see any advantage?? Of course, from a Swedish point of view, there's probably not much of an advantage. But the situation in Sweden (as in other countries in Scandinavia, Europe and a very few other places), is _not_ the standard. I'm actually quite amazed I have to say this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand perfectly well why someone would prefer to live in the US over living in Ethiopia. But I don't understand why someone who is willing to move anywhere would prefer the US over any other western democracy in general and the well run western tax havens in particular.

Though I agree, there is little reason for the OP to give up his american citizenship. Well, unless he is so far above $75,000 a year that it would significantly help him. If you give up your american citizenship it's better if it's because you've fallen in love with your new residence than for crass tax reasons.

Making $75,000 tax free per year should be enough.

[moondogg]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who was this? Is this an actual case that is a matter of public record, or just what you've heard?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was reported in the media. Probably a few years ago. I can't cite a source. I think the guy was in Idaho, probably online casino gambling, but that's all I can remember.

Have you heard of someone being prosecuted for sportsbetting online, or are you just referring to people operating online sportsbooks, like Cohen?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cohen definitely. I also though I had heard of a sports bettor getting nailed, in some ass-backwards left coast state like Idaho or Washington (we're probably thinking of the same case). However, I haven't been able to find a copy of the case in news archives, so it may have been my imagination.

Regardless, I'm pretty sure that illegal gambling charges (or pretty much anything else) can't be brought on the basis of tax returns.

Disclaimer: I ain't no damn lawyerin' type, and proud of it.

[feelixthegreek]

Of all the posts about paying taxes on gambling income, your point about Schedule C's is the one that makes the most instinctive sense to me--i.e. net winnings minus expenses. Of course, just because it makes the most sense doesn't mean that it's the legal thing to do. Anyone else see this as a viable, realistic, and legal way of calculating earnings? Where is the flaw?

[Panace50]

it is the legal thing to do if you are making a living playing poker. The offsetting factor is the 15% social security payment (they say it isn't a tax, cause you are paying your own retirement fund)There are more questions possible if you file a schedule c if you have w-2 income as well, but i did file the last year i worked other than poker, and was not audited or hassled. Maybe i just got lucky, but it seems to be that while they have the right to hassle you, the reality is that if you file anything that is reasonable, the statute of limitations is about 3 years from filing. if you do not file, there is no statute of limitations and they can ask for the money anytime in the rest of your life.

[feelixthegreek]

Exactly what I figured, but how liberal do you get with deductions-- home office, travel-- in order to bring down the taxable income?

[Panace50]

the key is always to do taxes two ways. First do taxes the way you think IRS agenst would do them. Then be as aggressive as you can without being fraudulent. When in doubt, deduct it!

Then put the difference in savings and wait three years. After the three years, you can count the money as yours, since the statute of limitations has expired for IRS to question your figures. Unless they think you were fraudulent, you are safe. This is important, since ours is a voluntary tax program. If IRS had to go out and figure taxes for every tax payer, the cost would be overwhelming, so they just rely on the fear factor and the good character of the american people to collect taxes?

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you find out what in what countries poker is not taxed ? From what I gather here,

NZ,
Australia,
UK,
Canada (if recreational)

are tax free for poker.

Any others to add to the list ?

How about,
Italy ?
Switzerland ?
Japan ?
Spain ?
Germany ?


[/ QUOTE ]

I've just scanned the forums and seen the topic come up once in a while. A search of Matt Hilger's site should yield a couple of the good threads I found there on it, where there's occasionally a somewhat extensive discussion about it.

[Danielih]

You can only get out of paying US taxes if you are no longer a U.S. Citizen. If you forfeit your U.S. citizenship for tax purposes you can never enter the US again and never regain your citizenship.

[Lori]

but i did file the last year i worked other than poker,

Does this mean stealing, lying and generally ripping people off doesn't pay as well as I thought?

Lori

[cardcounter0]

it was sports betting online in Montana, and the guy ran afoul of State Law, not Federal. So don't do any online sports betting in Montana. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MicroBob]

i only briefly caught the sports-betting guy article several mths ago.
i really thought it was north dakota though and it was from his STATE-income tax not the federal.
if i recall correctly, the judge pretty much laughed at the silly case. he said, 'this is what i do...i was just trying to dutifully pay my taxes' and he got off with probation and then moved to KY where the laws are friendlier.

again, this is just the best i can do from memory.

[MicroBob]

ANYBODY wondering about schedule-C's and whether you can do this and how do you go about it should get the book
Gambler's Guide to Taxes by walter Lewis.
it does not specifically cover internet-gambling....but does give ideas on how to file as a professional-gambler (poker, BJ, horse-race handicapping, etc) and even gives a couple of court-cases that set the precedent for some of this stuff.


I will be filing a scehdule-C as a professional gambler this year.
among my deductions:
my new laptop
phone-bill (dial-up access)
ISP bill
pokertracker purchase
2+2 books
mileage to B&M poker-rooms when my purpose was for poker-playing ($0.36/mile I believe)
possibly also the iced-lattes I purchase when I meet with friends at my internet-coffee place whom I'm givng poker lessons to (will be looking into that one)
if i decide to take a trip to Vegas I should be able to deduct the expenses because poker-for-income will be a significant part of the trip.

I specifically waited until January to get my new laptop because I suspected I might leave my job and take up online-poker full-time (which I did in early April).


This thread is somewhat interesting to me because I may choose to live abroad for a year or two if this internet-poker thing continues to go well. This wouldn't be for tax-dodging purposes but just because I have the urge to travel in my blood.

Before renouncing one's citizenship or rolling the dice with this one should always consider the 'bad-beat' possibility that the online-poker fad/craze will fade/die in the coming years.
Personally, I don't think it will happen....but that doesn't mean I have 100% confidence that it will continue to be ultra-profitable.

If the US gets nutty about the legislation aspect the games will be significantly drier without the casual american-novices. again, i don't think it will happen, but i acknowledge it's a possibility.

[Nightwish]

The only catch with filing as a professional gambler is that, if audited, the IRS may expect you to prove that you are in fact a professional gambler. This means that you must show a long-term winning record (ideally at least 3 of the last 5 years) and prove that you are in fact in the business of gambling. That means you must diligently maintain a log of your gambling wins/losses. It would also help to get a business address (a PO box) and maybe even business cards.

[jek187]

So, I go away for awhile and come back to see this pile of trash is back? Mary, crawl back to your shithole site and work on finishing turning it into a complete graveyard. If you stay around here much longer, you'll be banned a 3rd time. And I imagine that would be embarassing even for an unscrupulous hag such as yourself.

well . . . uh . . .fine. . .but how do you REALLY feel about her? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[solring]

[ QUOTE ]
i only briefly caught the sports-betting guy article several mths ago.
i really thought it was north dakota though and it was from his STATE-income tax not the federal.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it was North Dakota, and yes it was his state income tax. Here's the article from Cardplayer Magazine, 10 Oct 2003 (http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=13564)

[Zinzan]

[ QUOTE ]
the key is always to do taxes two ways. First do taxes the way you think IRS agenst would do them. Then be as aggressive as you can without being fraudulent...

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe just owning this "second set of books" is a risk. It better be locked up in a very secret place, and you better be able to burn it at a moment's notice.

-Z

[Blindfolk]

Slovenia has a program where they finance poker players to play online and in tourneys.

[collegeplayer1]

(i have only read the original post)

First of all, I think you sound like a moron. You are going to make between 200-300K? That is quite a gap. Give us an idea of where you play, what games you play, and your win rates. How long have you been playing?

If you give up your citizenship you cant travel to many countries. If you are making that much, why not jsut pay your taxes? If you want to completely hide the money, risking jail, jsut set up a bank account outside US and ahve all funds go through that account straight from the sites. Do not use neteller. you wont be able to show money. you cant buy a jaguar or a house.

okay now for some positive advice. internet is availible all over the world. you just have to work through details like visas. i am currently in thailand. im thinking of buying a laptop so i can play in cafes and not have to worry about someone hacking my info.

must people in society dont have any balls. they live in fear. yes, ia m 18. no i dont give a [censored] about college right now. yes, i am traveling the world making alot of money playing poker. yes, i am having alot of sex. yes, i live each day to the highest capacity.

its your life and your choice. [censored] or get off the pot.

ps: the name i choose was intentional irony. so ssh!

[Lori]

i am currently in thailand. im thinking of buying a laptop so i can play in cafes and not have to worry about someone hacking my info.


If you are gambling through an internet cafe in Thailand, someone hacking your info is the absolute least of your worries.

I'd be more worried about being locked up for a very long time if I were you.

Edit: Unless things have changed.

I have several friends who looked into this not too long ago, and it's highly illegal.

Lori

[collegeplayer1]

[ QUOTE ]
i am currently in thailand. im thinking of buying a laptop so i can play in cafes and not have to worry about someone hacking my info.


If you are gambling through an internet cafe in Thailand, someone hacking your info is the absolute least of your worries.

I'd be more worried about being locked up for a very long time if I were you.

Edit: Unless things have changed.

I have several friends who looked into this not too long ago, and it's highly illegal.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]
true. many countries have laws against gambling....

[rerazor]

"true. maby countries have laws against gambling.... "

I'm sorry I come off as a moron, you set a pretty high standard that's hard to compete with.

[collegeplayer1]

at avoiding the question. you cant just fill out a form and get automatic citizenship to another country. what you are tlaking about is a [censored] pipe dream. its stupid and yuo know it. you didnt answer me. where do you play? what are your names? im sick of people who want there hand held. yuo want to live abroad and play? then go do it. put up or shut up.

[rerazor]

I didn't make this post to measure penises, I wanted some information. And actually in many countries you can fill out a form and get citizenship, so long as you have money, which I do.

I'm glad you're so proud of living in Thailand at age 18, but you strike me as someone who could have benefited from a little more education.


PS - Am I a moron for wanting to move abroad to play poker or for not doing it before I made this post, I'm confused.

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted some information. And actually in many countries you can fill out a form and get citizenship, so long as you have money, which I do.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you have enough money, basically it's "take your pick". Some desirable countries for gamblers that have very "open" inmigration policies are Canada and Australia.

Citizenships in many latin american countries can be had for $25K or less. Now, if you want Swiss, Monaco, or Andorra citizenship, you can't have it without making some very special things, like if you spent $100M building an Hospital in Monaco and gave it away to the government in exchange for "Monegascan" citizenship. Or marrying the "only" daughter of an Andorran citizen. Or whatever the Swiss are requiring these days...(very expensive).

Many cheaper utilitarian choices remain. Like, for instance you depo $500K in Canadian Government bonds and move there, after a year you get your citizenship.(Or something like that, the last time I looked). Australia is even easier. Some European countries too. If you want to become Israeli, you only need to get converted, a Rabbi letter, and go thru the best military training in the world.

It's a supermarket out there!. Plenty of choices. The more money you have, the more choices available to you.