Party 3/6 hand review: Were these weak plays? [Archive]

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chesspain

10-03-2004, 03:57 PM

Rather than continuing to whine about how I can't beat 3/6, I thought I'ld post some hands from the past twenty-four hours where I may have played weakly and/or made some questionable folds. Although I generally abhor posts with multiple hands, I posted these four hands because I wondered if a common, weak-tight theme might be running through my play.

Hand 1: Opponent is rather loose-passive and fishy.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)
Preflop: chesspain is UTG+1 with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, chesspain raises, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 4 folds.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
chesspain bets, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

Turn: (4.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
chesspain bets, MP1 calls.

River: (6.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
chesspain bets, MP1 raises, chesspain folds.

Hand 2: CO is the same loose-passive player from hand #1. The two MP players were somewhat loose and could each exhibit aggro moments.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: chesspain is MP3 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, chesspain raises, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (11.33 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, chesspain checks, CO bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, chesspain calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, chesspain checks, CO bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, chesspain calls.

River: (11.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, chesspain bets, CO calls, MP1 raises, chesspain folds, CO calls.

Hand 3: The chief opponent in this hand was very loose (e.g. openlimped in MP with 23o) and generally passive, especially when facing others' aggression.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: chesspain is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, chesspain raises, 4 folds, Button calls, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, chesspain calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB bets, chesspain raises, Button folds, SB 3-bets, chesspain calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets, chesspain folds.

Hand 4: Chief opponent in this hand seemed average and fairly non-descript.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: chesspain is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
4 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, chesspain 3-bets, 1 fold, CO calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, chesspain calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
chesspain checks, CO bets, chesspain folds.

Jeff W

10-03-2004, 04:23 PM

Hand 1:

A river bet is bad here. I check-fold here usually. The bet on the turn is marginal.

Hand 2:

Flop call is fine, but I fold the turn. The pot is big, but not big enough to justify drawing to a 1-card ISD with a 3 flush on the board. Your Qs are no good either.

Hand 3:

Tough hand. Trust your reads and you'll do fine. If he has top pair or a set here every time then there is no reason to look him up.

Hand 4:

Flop bet is mandatory. The way you played it I think I have to call down heads up. You probably have the best hand. Of the 4 hands, I think that only this one was too weak.

jrobb83

10-03-2004, 04:34 PM

Hand 1:
I would check-fold this river. A loose passive type will not bet anything that you beat, and it is very likely that his hand beats you even if he calls a bet.

Hand 2:
I would probably fold the turn here, and I don't see any reason to put any money in on the river.

Hand 3:
You played this well. There is too much in the pot simply to give up to the initial bet, but once a passive player 3-bets you, your hand is no longer good.

Hand 4:
You let CO take this one away from you. Bet the flop, take it from there.

Nate tha' Great

10-03-2004, 04:41 PM

1) Seems okay. I'd probably play it the same. Sometimes I think I'm really better off making a tough check-fold in these spots but I think this is the right play against an extremely loose opponent. Check-calling is bad here since you might have a *little* bit of folding equity if he is playing something like JT very meekly. No way do you need to call the raise if you bet. The board is scary enough to protect you against a pure bluff and passive opponents don't bluff too often anyway.

2) I'm done with the hand on the turn. You don't have the best hand and don't have enough clean enough outs to continue. Betting out on the river won't accomplish anything.

3) You should probably fold immediately on the flop and failing that should fold immediately after his 3-bet (the pot is not big enough even for a 'loose' call). One thing that looks like a little bit of a theme is that you aren't giving PASSIVE opponents enough credit for a hand when they come to life and play aggressively. If his range of 3-betting hands is wide enough that you see this flop and want to continue with your hand, then you should cap preflop.

4) This one is stinky. You may very well have the best hand against a late position raise. Bet and if he raises then you have some interesting decisions to make.

This is not a particularly well-played set of hands. In fact they seem rather out of character with the quality of your posts in general. Is it possible that you're psyching yourself out somehow when playing at the higher limit?

me454555

10-03-2004, 04:48 PM

Hand 1: Check the river, too many cards out there that beat you
Hand 2: Check on the river, I'd probobly toss it to a bet unless I was the only caller
Hand 3: Toss it on the flop, you got 3 bet pf, there's an overcard on the board, and sb isn't afraid of betting into a pf 3 bettor. You're most likely behind and have few outs to improve with
Hand 4: Bet the flop, you still might be ahead and might be able to take it down with just a flop bet

I think you need to work on your aggression. Your definatly aggressive enough but I think you need to pick your spots better.

lil'

10-03-2004, 05:14 PM

hand 1 - Seems good. I prefer a river bet over a check as well.
hand 2 - The 3rd spade ends your adventure on the turn. Bad flop.
hand 3 - I don't mind the flop raise, but I'd be out after the three bet.
hand 4 - As everyone has said, bet the flop. You kinda threw in the towel here very quickly.

If you were worried about weak tight, it only shows up in the 4th hand.

Trix

10-03-2004, 05:38 PM

I agree with everything nate said. I will go with check-fold the river in numberone if I´m fairly sure he will check-through when I beat him. The turn call in number two is bad, but the riverbet is horrid..
You can fold number 3 to most 3betting ranges and you probably know this.

Number four should be an autobet.

Since you are single tabling, try and put the opponents on hands, try and think about what concepts matter to the decisions you are going to make and try to think why about why you are choosing one option over another. Also, think ahead, what are you going to do if you get bet into, CRed and so on.

chesspain

10-03-2004, 06:01 PM

Nate,

I posted these hands precisely because I wasn't real proud of them, and they presented me with more difficult choices than the numerous bad beat hands where I called down river raises out of the blue to my TP hands.

Hand 1: I actually thought I played this hand fairly well. I'm surprised that people are advocating checkfolding the river, since all my opponent has done is call. I thought he could easily have been calling down with a worse hand (at least until he raised me).

Hand 2: I wonder if there was some unconscious influence from SSH working here. Although I know that all of my outs aren't clean, I figured I had at three clean outs to a str8 and possibly one clean out for a set if no one has a J. By the time I got to the river, I knew that checkcalling was terrible, so I figured I should either checkfold, or take a chance on betting and on a 9% chance that no one had an A and that either player might fold a weak K. Obviously, the bet wasn't good.

Hand 3: By the time this hand came around, it had felt like any time I had a decent hand over the past few hundred hands, someone was betting into me or raising me. In fact, I wondered if I had a sign on my back, for it felt like even the passive players were coming after me. Once I was three-bet, I figured he had a king, but with 15SB now in the pot, I thought I could make a loose call to see if I might turn a heart or a J. Also, I didn't want to give even more ammunition to anyone who thought they could just three-bet me off of any flop.

Hand 4: By this time I'm obviously playing well below my abilities. I didn't want to get bluff-raised off of this flop, so I decided to check the flop. Then when the turn came, I saw how small the pot was, and decided it was more likely that I was facing a pocket pair than a hand like AJ/AT/KJ/KT. Hence, the fold...and a ridiculously played hand.

BigBaitsim (milo)

10-03-2004, 06:11 PM

Hand #1: With the A & K out, I prolly check-call the river. I know I'm beat, but this is Party, right?

Hand #2: Bet the flop, call a raise. Toss it on the turn.

Hand #3: Once three-bet you are beat. Toss it there (of course, I probably call that for one more SB and pray for my two-outer on the turn, but I am a fool).

Hand #4: Bet the flop.

Nate tha' Great

10-03-2004, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: I actually thought I played this hand fairly well. I'm surprised that people are advocating checkfolding the river, since all my opponent has done is call. I thought he could easily have been calling down with a worse hand (at least until he raised me).

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason I think it *might* be a check-fold is because the turned Ace would have pushed some players off some of the weaker made hands that you were hoping that he would hold (e.g. one of the bottom two pairs on the board).

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I wonder if there was some unconscious influence from SSH working here. Although I know that all of my outs aren't clean, I figured I had at three clean outs to a str8 and possibly one clean out for a set if no one has a J. By the time I got to the river, I knew that checkcalling was terrible, so I figured I should either checkfold, or take a chance on betting and on a 9% chance that no one had an A and that either player might fold a weak K. Obviously, the bet wasn't good.

[/ QUOTE ]

The call on the turn isn't a big deal. I still think it's a mistake, but probably a small one. I've been experimenting with betting out on the river in some spots where I was planning on calling anyway, but I don't think this is a good one with two opponents and a very scary board.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: By the time this hand came around, it had felt like any time I had a decent hand over the past few hundred hands, someone was betting into me or raising me. In fact, I wondered if I had a sign on my back, for it felt like even the passive players were coming after me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the thing: when you're running bad, it really can screw up your card sense damned good.

[ QUOTE ]
Once I was three-bet, I figured he had a king, but with 15SB now in the pot, I thought I could make a loose call to see if I might turn a heart or a J.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you make up quite enough in terms of implied odds in order to rationalize this call.

But the problem is still with the initial raise on the flop. Sure, by the time it gets back around to you, you might be able to make an argument for a call ... but that's only because your longshot raise and his subsequent 3-bet has made the pot so large.

I actually think that raising is the worst of the three plays here. There are *some* merits to a call; you get to see another card cheaply, and you may *still* get a free card on the turn if the opponent has QQ or something and is scared he's run into AK. Some weak opponents may even check if a third flush card comes off.

I understand that the raise is partly intended to protect your hand by getting the third player out ... but you are not going to be ahead often enough here to worry about hand protection. The parlay of your currently holding the best hand *and* the third player folding a hand that is either ahead of yours or which will draw out on yours will not come through often enough to warrant spending an extra 1-2 bets.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I didn't want to give even more ammunition to anyone who thought they could just three-bet me off of any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive online opponents don't usually think about that sort of stuff.

krishanleong

10-03-2004, 06:58 PM

I think the first hand is the most interesting. What hands could your opponent have that you beat on the river that he will call with?

Any hand with two face cards beats you. Any A, K, J beats you. It just seems very hard to justify the river bet. Even with a superfishy read, is he going to have 77 or another small pair or Qx quited often enough to make this river bet profitable? I think the thinking behing this bet might be a big hole.

JimRivett

10-03-2004, 08:09 PM

My take on the differences between the Party 2/4 (and lower) and the the 3/6 games is that the 2/4 games are much softer. In my opinion there is a big difference between the 2/4 and 3/6 games. I'll hasten to add that I make this opinion after only a little over 2 months of internet play.

On the hands you have posted, I'll let the other posters disect them, however I don't think you played any of them really poorly. My thoughts would be to look at different hand such as AQ, AJ and A10, are you calling raises with these hands, if so why? What about small pocket pairs, and Ax suited. Are you calling in early position with these? If so why? I feel that how you play these sort of hands make a big difference when playing in a tougher game.

fwiw I currently play 3/6 on Party 2 tables at once, however I'm considering upgrading my hardware so as to able to play 4 tables, with no table overlap. If that happens I'll drop back to 2/4 until I'm comfortable playing 4 tables.

Regards,
Jim