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View Full Version : what kind of hand makes money in NL?


11-04-2001, 01:44 AM
I have found that big pocket pairs make very little money in NL unless you get a challenger, in which case one of you will probably still back down before the flop, I had to toss QQ yesterday after someone reraised my big raise. I showed QQ and of course he showed AA.

Drawing hands also have not brought in huge pots for me because someone usually raises on the flop and everyone drops out and it's no longer worth it to pursue the hand to the river because of the terrible pot odds.

I have found that slowplaying or checkraising on a good flop has brought me the biggest pots.

Also, occasionally a horrendous player's bad decision helps me get some money as well.

I'm not an experienced player in NL or PL yet but I seem to do better in these types of games so far. The swings are actually less for me so far because it's easier to defend top pair with a hefty bet (which is also a good "trip detector") and it's easy to throw away an expensive draw as well.

I'd appreciate hearing anyone's ideas on NL, especially since I'm only playing with my own ideas so far, I don't know any books on the subject. Sklansky's and Malmuth's book does not deal with NL at all, surprisingly. I think it should have more about this type of game. It has a brief couple of pages about PL though.

11-04-2001, 12:38 PM
sort of like slow play myself, but must worry about draw outs, and not over do it


bottom line is that holdem is a high card game...be it limit or otherwise...and the advantage of N/L or P/L over limit is that you can make it unprofitable for the small pairs, etc to chase you and draw out.


perhaps my favorite hands are connected cards such as 7,8 (and of course being suited adds some small value). you do not want to pay a lot to see the flop,but I like them because when you do hit you can usually get a good payoff....one which will more than pay for a lot of misses


inconclusion--it IS a high card game

11-04-2001, 10:15 PM
it sounds like big pairs will make you even less money in the future. now the players wont reraise you and let you get away from big pairs when they are beat. plus they know they can run you off hands at will. dont show your cards.

11-05-2001, 07:54 PM
You should actually be asking "what kind of _situation_ makes money in NL?"


It's not necessarily the cards that make you money in no limit. It's the situations. It's how you can manipulate your opponent.


For instance, the best kind of opponent to have is one who will call too many preflop raises with any two paints and then can't let go of top pair. Beeeeee-yoo-tiful. Against this guy, you never have to bluff. You just wait until you have at least top pair ace kicker against him and then start betting.


However, there are plenty of other opponents who will break you when you flop a pair with AK if you're not careful. You will NEVER get them into a situation where they get all-in with non-nut kicker. If you get a lot of action, you will either be calling down a bluff or a set. This is a tough situation to be in and is not a big money maker. Throw in bad position against a player like this and AK is possibly not even a money maker, considering you will lose often when you whiff from out of position and if you get a lot of action when you hit you will be very concerned.


One of the first things you have to do in order to start winning at no limit is to start playing the situation rather than just focusing on the cards. Of course, this is true to an extent in limit poker as well. Just not as extreme.


natedogg


PS: regarding your QQ hand. The nature of QQ is that you don't want to get it all in preflop with a good sized stack. The problem is that it's very hard to get someone to go all in with you with a hand worse than QQ. Whenever you are all in with QQ preflop, you are PRAYING to see AK. So, you were correct to lay down the QQ to a big pre-flop re-raise, especially in the normally passive UltimateBet games. This is assuming your stack was pretty big. If it was $20 or less, you are in a situation where you should commit. A very profitable situation to get into with QQ is to put about half your stack in before the flop against a passive, limit player who will call a big raise with AK. If your QQ is still an overpair on the flop, you can move in and usually get the opponent to call with an unimproved AK because they have pot-stuck themselves. Sometimes they will call with a worse ace that gives them only three outs. This makes a lot of money for me on UB. Of course, I lost an $80 pot that way last weekend when the ace came on the turn.


Note to Ray Zee, stop discouraging people from showing their hands!

11-06-2001, 02:17 PM
"A very profitable situation to get into with QQ is to put about half your stack in before the flop against a passive, limit player who will call a big raise with AK"


I think massively overbetting the pot pre-flop is rarely correct. In your QQ example, you will either get called or re-raised by AA, KK or AK. So if you don't get called you pickup the blinds and if you get called you are at best 50/50.


Ken Poklitar

11-06-2001, 09:56 PM
well, quite often noone has AA KK or AK. They are most likely to have AK and their chances of getting a pair on the flop are less than 40%. If they have JJ or TT and are in the mood to bet it can turn out nice. You're right, it is a dangerous hand and can easily be beat.

11-07-2001, 02:41 AM
It's also not true that you are 50/50 versus AK in that situation. Read natedogg's post again.


He's advocating a bet on the flop, as well. Now you are we better than 50% against AK, since they either have to throw it away when the flop misses them, or put a bunch more money in with many fewer outs.


AK is only a slight dog to QQ *before the flop*, and that's useful in all in situations. This is not one of those.


- target

11-07-2001, 03:59 PM
I understand the 50/50 is with all 7 cards.


My point was that overbetting the pot means you will pickup a bunch of small pots ( the blinds) with QQ or you will lose to AA/KK or you will have a 50/50 shot assuming 7 cards.


Why not make a pot size raise, play some post-flop hold'em and maybe win some decent pots?


Now if you are at a table where players are calling big raises with smaller or medium pairs or decent aces, then I agree with natedog that making a big bet is correct.


Ken Poklitar

11-08-2001, 05:51 AM
I was indeed specifically talking about when facing the kind of player who will call with too much of his stack preflop with only a big ace. Sometimes he'll have a bigger pair and sometimes he'll have a small pair that flops a set, but most of the time he'll have AJ or something and you can move all in when you flop QQ as an overpair. Even if he makes the set (which you can't get away from ) or if he hits an over card (which you CAN get away from) you made a lot of money by getting half your stack into the pot with the far superior hand.


natedogg