Newbie question

[AriesRam]

.50/1.00 Paradise NL.

Opponent is UTG+2 has $45, and I have him covered. He seems like a pretty solid player.

Villian open raises to $3. Two callers, and I am the button with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. I call, the rest fold.

Flop comes 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Villian bets $4, folded to me and I raise to $12. Villian pushes and I call.

Like I said, I am pretty new to NL and any feedback would be appreciated.

[Kaz The Original]

If he would do it with just one pair, it's fine. If he wouldn't with anything less than two pair, it's horrible. Depends on your definition of solid I suppose : )

[AriesRam]

We hadn't been playing together long enough for me to have a real solid read on him, he just hadn't done anything noticeably stupid. Although you have to consider who was doing the noticing. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Anyway, when he pushed, I put him on an overpair. I am used to limit, where I try to train myself not to see monsters. I thought I had at least 12 outs twice.

[LokiV]

You have the odds to call the flop bet.

If you believe he has an overpair, why do you feel the need to push right then? You will be called then, you do have 9-12 outs probably. His strength in the worst case scenario represents AA or a set. At best JJ.

I'm curious as to whether this was the right play or not. I generally do not know... but I don't make a habit of pushing all in without an edge or out of necessity.

[Tilt]

My comments, for what they are worth....

I don't like your flop raise here. It is too big and it commits you. When he pushes you have to call 38 into a pot of 79. The odds are about right for the call, but is this how you wanted the hand to end up? It might be avoidable.

I think its an open question whether you want to raise the flop here. You are probably behind, so its a semi-bluff and nothing else. If you have 3 more players in the hand who will call then raising is +EV, but heads up it may not be. If you just call you are still in a +EV play. You have lots of reason to believe he is ahead and will not fold to a raise based on preflop and flop bets, and since he is offering you odds to call, why not just call? Thats blasphemy around here I know, but I think you are more likely to benefit from the cheap card here than your opponent.

In the NL ring you see the flush draw raise so often it becomes very predictable. Thats why he pushes with his pocket pair.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
You are probably behind, so its a semi-bluff and nothing else.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are about 55% (correct me if i'm wrong - didn't twodimes it) against a hand like JJ or K8. you're not thrilled to be getting all-in here (i think you're about 25% against a set), but it's fine.

well-played the whole way.

[GimmeDaWatch]

The way you played it is ok, although I would just call the flop bet. The reason being that I dont like to semi-bluff when I think there's a good chance Im getting re-raised and will have to gamble with my whole stack. Your play will probably push him off of AK and AQ, and with more careful, conservative players you might get a call and a free turn when they check to you with their overpair. Still, QQ-KK and you're a small dog to win the pot (AA you have an ugly 9 outs) and by the time he pushes your pot odds are such that you HAVE to call.

[samurai]

I think you just call that flop bet. The way I'm reading it you're probably up against a high pocket pair. Your hoping to hit your flush or pair your ace. I think you hit once every three times. At these lower limits, you're not going to get to many people to fold, so I think over the long haul this play loses money.

I would just call and see what the turn brings.

[Tilt]

Yep, Schwza is right and I am dead wrong. Forgot the value of your overpair draw.

If you listen to him and not to me, that is always +EV. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AriesRam]

Thanks for your responses. A lot of you made a much more convincing case for calling than I could have come up with.

To expand my thinking a little. The 1/3 pot bet threw me a little. I couldn't tell if it was a "bet small-get raised-so I can push" or "bet small-get raised-so I get out cheaply" bet. I thought there was a good chance I could force him out with a raise. I guess its the limit beast in me that overestimated his likelihood of betting with just overcards.

Once he pushed, I put him on a big pair. Unless he is total loon, he can't have 2 pair, and like I said, I am trying not to see monsters i.e. a set.

As it happens, the turn was the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Assuming you had flat called the flop, how would you have played it? Raise if he bets? Call if he bets? Bet if he checks? Would you call a push?

Thanks again for your help.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
As it happens, the turn was the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif. Assuming you had flat called the flop, how would you have played it? Raise if he bets? Call if he bets? Bet if he checks? Would you call a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

Once he pushed we learned he had high pp. Knowing that, you would have to figure you are a huge favorite at this point, with a small chance that he has AA against which you still have a draw. Bet and/or raise for value.

If you un-learned that, however, so all you knew was his preflop and flop action....I think you should bet well against a check or just call a bet or checkraise.

If he pushed or check-pushed I would be guessing he has AK...to which you are a three to one dog after the turn...so I would look at the pot and do the math.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
.50/1.00 Paradise NL.

Opponent is UTG+2 has $45, and I have him covered. He seems like a pretty solid player.

Villian open raises to $3. Two callers, and I am the button with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. I call, the rest fold.

Flop comes 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Villian bets $4, folded to me and I raise to $12.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you just called, there would be 20 in the pot. Given the raiser has less than 2X pot left if you call, the nature of your hand, it now being headsup, and the small bet indicating there is a good chance of him folding, an allin bet seems the best play.

[ QUOTE ]
Villian pushes and I call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once you raise only 8, and get moved in, I think you are getting just over 2-1 on the call. You're a 3-1 dog at worse, but much more likely to be against some kind of pair. Maybe even some kind of big draw like 79s. Given the
pot/stack ratios, an overpair seems most likely.

Overall, you are getting the odds to put the rest in.