Maybe I really can't beat Party 3/6?

[chesspain]

After having a hellacious first ten days of September playing 2/4 and some 3/6, I focused exclusively on 2/4 (single table) for the remainder of the month, and by the end of the month I saw that I was beating the 2/4 tables for 3BB/100 hands after the admittedly small total of 7K hands that I have in Pokertracker.

Having gotten my confidence back, I decided to give the 3/6 games a shot again (having been down 40BB in my initial foray there). So I sat down yesterday to play 3/6, and have proceeded to lose 75BB in the last twenty-four hours playing single tables, while not doing anything seemingly "crazy."

Whereas I would like to believe that good 'ol variance just happened to bite me coincidentally at the moment that I decided to return to 3/6, it has also become painfully obvious that the 3/6 games are not nearly as profitable as 2/4, or at least not during the hours of 9am-11pm EST. Indeed, I have yet to see a 3/6 table with higher than 35% to the flop. Unless I just suck (which is possible), I don't see how people average 2BB/100 per table playing 4+ tables at one time. Anyway, on to the hand:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

At the time of this hand, what I knew about this opponent was that he played nearly any two cards, and did things like openlimp with AQo and then call down unimproved. I hadn't gotten a good read on his post-flop play, although he seemed more calling station than LAG.

Preflop: chesspain is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">6 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (5 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">chesspain 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 caps</font>, chesspain calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
chesspain checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, chesspain calls.

River: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">chesspain bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, chesspain calls.

[Edited to remove results]

Hello,
I personally had a similar experience between the $1-2 and $2-4 game. I know many out there are crushing the $2-4 and above game however my personal experience is that I do about the same as I do in the $1-2 game(maybe even worse). In general, players at $1-2 and below just seem to play horribly. It just seems so much easier to win the monster pots at the lower levels. Even at $2-4, to get a nice pot, you usually need to have someone elses pretty good hand beat. At the lower limits people seem to call your raises even though they have bottom pair or some other garbage hand.

So I can relate. I am currently dabbeling in $2-4 to see if I can nail down a successfull system however thus far, $1-2 is my game.

I think its greed that makes us want to go up levels. We think - man I'm rocking at 3bb/hr at $1-2 , I can do twice as good if I go up a level. In my experience this simply isn't the case. We might still win, but bb/hr suffers.

Good luck!

[lil']

Given your description of this guy, I would just check call the river. Other than that, you got a little unlucky here. This is a hand where hiding the results would be better when posting, I think.

FWIW, you have the skills to beat games much higher than 3/6.

[chesspain]

lil,

As per your suggestion, I just removed the results, although it's probably obvious from my post that I did not win this hand.

In addition, it's nice that you and Bison are so confident that I can beat games online higher than 2/4. Maybe if and when this begins to happen I'll start to believe it.

[StellarWind]

I don't put him on Q5.

The river didn't help. Check and make a crying call.

[StellarWind]

You obviously don't have the confidence required to play 3/6. Go back and beat up on 2/4 until you know in your heart that you own it.

Playing 3/6 when you doubt your ability to beat 2/4 is too much pressure.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]

In addition, it's nice that you and Bison are so confident that I can beat games online higher than 2/4. Maybe if and when this begins to happen I'll start to believe it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps your leaks are in the hands you're not posting?

[lil']

You need a nice trip down to Foxwoods to play 4-8 or 5-10. After beating that game, you'll feel much better. Screw this internet stuff.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You need a nice trip down to Foxwoods to play 4-8 or 5-10. After beating that game, you'll feel much better. Screw this internet stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that sounds like a plan!

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
You obviously don't have the confidence required to play 3/6. Go back and beat up on 2/4 until you know in your heart that you own it.

Playing 3/6 when you doubt your ability to beat 2/4 is too much pressure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, the 3/6 games seem different enough from 2/4 (e.g. fewer players to the flop, fewer bad players, more aggression, etc.) that I don't see how beating up 2/4 players will prepare me to win at 3/6.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps your leaks are in the hands you're not posting?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think I have a lot of hands that I played worse than this one? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Trix]

check-call the river, it has nothing to do with this hand though..

I´m pretty sure you can beat it in the long run though.
How many hands do you have there ?

[Evan]

Is there a reason you decided to bet the river here? The only hand that you jumped ahead of is Q5, I think the river should be check-call.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a reason you decided to bet the river here? The only hand that you jumped ahead of is Q5, I think the river should be check-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

The river bet was foolish in retrospect, since I failed to see that I'm still behind to any flopped two-pair. Although my opponent hadn't seemed LAGgy before, most of the hands he had played before where he seemed like a calling station were hands where he had nothing. I wondered if he had gotten jiggy on the flop with a worse ace, and I figured that the paired river would protect me from a raise, and prevent him from checking through the river with a worse ace.

All-in-all, my thinking on the river was a mess.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I consider myself primarily a 3/6 player now, but took several cracks at it before catching on. My first 6K hands at 3/6 were a losing effort, then I increased my aggression and loosened up (post-SSH). The next 6K hands went by at a blistering 7BB/100. Yesterday I played almost 2K hands at 3/6 and the games seemed different. They were tighter, more aggressive pre-flop and with fewer crappy players. Or maybe I just suck and my second set of 6K hands was a fluke, because I dropped over 150BB in a single day. After 14K hands at 3/6, I am averaging 2BB/100. Over the previous 20K at 2/4, I was averaging 5.2BB/100. Clearly the 2/4 is more profitable thus far. I'm going to play to about 25K hands at 3/6 and re-evaluate (assuming my BR survives). The games can be very good, but are less reliably good at 3/6 than they are at 2/4. Game selection is much more important at 3/6 than it is at 2/4.

I agree with Bison et al. You are good enough to move up.

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a reason you decided to bet the river here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it's the 2+2 thing to do? It's almost a mantra around here. Inevitably, in the process of fighting those weak urges to check you make a few of these bets...

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think I have a lot of hands that I played worse than this one? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure as hell do, everytime I sit down!

[MAxx]

i know you can beat 3/6. i would like to say f--- fear and stick with it (assuming bankroll doesnt limit your decision).

on the other hand, as stellar points out, it is not good to play without confidence. i would go back to 2/4 till you get get over this recent sense of failure. next time you move up, just remember to keep up with you best game even if variance rears its ugly head again. hell, it could happen to you a dozen more times you try and move up (hopefully not). it is important to have a thick skin and be able to brush it off with out getting upset or questioning your abilities.

I have had similar experiendes with 5/10, so I know it is tuff. But really man, stop questioning your abilities. it is just a matter of time before you are beating up on people at 3/6.

[BigEndian]

Chess, when it's capped on the flop and then the flush completes on the turn, I would be playing for the flush though I would probably call for one more on the river (especially this river). I definitely would not bet into him on the river however. This is only one hand though and isn't going to shine a light on why you might be having trouble with 3/6.

Btw, I've had streaks of 10,000 hands at 3/6 fairing much worse than 2BB/100.

The combined aggressiveness and the generally better player post flop is going to make for bigger swings. Also, table selection is your friend.

- Jim

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, the 3/6 games seem different enough from 2/4 (e.g. fewer players to the flop, fewer bad players, more aggression, etc.) that I don't see how beating up 2/4 players will prepare me to win at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's your VPIP and PFR for these games? Do you frequently limp first in? I find the higher I go the less I want to be in the hand when I'm not the PF raiser.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your VPIP and PFR for these games? Do you frequently limp first in? I find the higher I go the less I want to be in the hand when I'm not the PF raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

14.1/7.7 (whereas I'm 16.2/7.9 at 2/4), so I don't think I'm playing significantly differently preflop, with the exception of tightening up in the SB and tightening up overall in games where it doesn't seem profitable to limp up front with small pairs or small suited aces. I just wonder if I'm hitting some bad hands + not adjusting properly post-flop to the less juicy nature of these games.

[pokerkai]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You obviously don't have the confidence required to play 3/6. Go back and beat up on 2/4 until you know in your heart that you own it.

Playing 3/6 when you doubt your ability to beat 2/4 is too much pressure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, the 3/6 games seem different enough from 2/4 (e.g. fewer players to the flop, fewer bad players, more aggression, etc.) that I don't see how beating up 2/4 players will prepare me to win at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 3/6 game is different, that I will not disagree with.
But not to the point where a good winning 2/4 player becomes a losing player when moving up.

I experienced something very similar to what your going through recently chesspain. I went through a 240bb downswing at 5/10 and had my game shaken to the core.
I also dropped down in limits, to 3/6 and found that i was crushing it, but still felt that I had learned nothing of value that could help me beat the 5/10.

After crushing the 3/6 game for 20k hands, I decided to take go back to my regular 5/10 game and have since been on the rush of my life. Up about 700BBs

I think getting my confidence back at 3/6 was extremely vital to my comeback. So yes play the 2/4, until you can get back that killer instinct.
Hang in there bud, theres a light at the end of the tunnel.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What's your VPIP and PFR for these games? Do you frequently limp first in? I find the higher I go the less I want to be in the hand when I'm not the PF raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

14.1/7.7 (whereas I'm 16.2/7.9 at 2/4), so I don't think I'm playing significantly differently preflop, with the exception of tightening up in the SB and tightening up overall in games where it doesn't seem profitable to limp up front with small pairs or small suited aces. I just wonder if I'm hitting some bad hands + not adjusting properly post-flop to the less juicy nature of these games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since reading SSH, my V$IP has skyrocketed from 16.5 to 22.3. My PFR went from 6.5 to 8.1 and my WR jumped dramatically over the past 16K hands (even counting yesterday's -150BB debacle). Given your numbers above and the 85 on Rolf's test, I would suspect you are folding too much and not pushing the small edges.

One error I am making is applying Ed's "loose" guidelines to all games. This worked well at 2/4, but at 3/6 the games sometimes call for "loose" guidelines and sometimes call for "tight" guidelines. Given my hammering yesterday, I will switch to the "tight" guidelines until I have my bearings straight (unless the table demands I loosen up /images/graemlins/cool.gif).

[bisonbison]

Chess, let me share some highlights from my 55k hands at 3/6.

http://www.stompandcrush.com/images/results1.gif

That was me breaking even over my first 5000 hands. Note the perilous slopes on the east side of these mountains.

Man, I'm glad that's over. I think I'm getting the hang of this... oh shi...

http://www.stompandcrush.com/images/results2.gif

Then August went really well and I'm chugging along in september when... SLOTBOOM!

http://www.stompandcrush.com/images/results3.gif

That was -170BB in 3 days. And really, if I want to rewind a little:

http://www.stompandcrush.com/images/results4.gif

Then it's -200BB in 5 days. Whee! Of course, once you're halfway out of the valley, you discover a sinkhole and you're right back where you landed the first time you fell:

http://www.stompandcrush.com/images/results5.gif

And if I'd wanted to, I could have dropped down during any of these streaks and worried myself stupid about whether the Party 3/6 game has some sort of invulnerable fence of skill that I will never climb. But I didn't. I just buckled down and played more hands and adjusted and started winning again.

You just have to trust that if you can handily beat level X then you can beat level X+1. It's an incremental step from 2/4 to 3/6, and there's no reason that anyone but you can think of why you can't be successful at 3/6.

That black line that's running through each little picture is my winrate after fifty-five thousand 3/6 hands. And all it tells me is that if I play enough hands the ground will rise up to meet me.

[spamuell]

I am glad you posted this, and this:

[ QUOTE ]

Then August went really well and I'm chugging along in september when... SLOTBOOM!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks.

Might as well add a link to Homer's streaks (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=445039&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=1&amp;vc=1) thread for the newer 2+2ers.

[joker122]

I broke even in my first 20k hands at 3/6. In my last 20k I had a 4bb/100 winrate. It's just variance.

Party 3/6 is a joke, you are good, don't worry.

[balkii]

hi chess. maybe a good idea would be to try out the 1/2 6 max games for a little while. the 3/6 IS tighter and more aggro than 2/4, and if you pick the wrong table, you will find yourself in a lot of headsup pots and blind steal/defense situations. getting your feet wet in these spots at much lower limit might give you the confidence play them at higher stakes.

but seriously. theres no way anyone who beats the 2/4 for more than 1bb/100 can't beat the 3/6. impossible.

[TylerD]

I've recently moved up to $3/6 and I'm killing the games! Currently at 8BB/100 after 5K hands. /images/graemlins/grin.gif I rule.

Seriously though this is just variance you're probably going to hit your hot streak just as I hit my 100BB downswing or whatever. Judging by your posts I'm sure you're a winner at 3/6, I mean you have to be, the games are just sooo good. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[mikeyKay]

i think the point of dropping down is to build confidence in your poker game in general. even though the game may be different, it still requires the same basic poker skill set, and requires you to adjust to your opponents. you need to have confidence to play the game to the best of your ability. the hand you posted is a confidence killer, and makes you want to curl up into a little ball and not play...but, you must realize you are a good solid player and can win. you have to be sure you can win, then you will win. i have read your posts and think you are a great player, just get some confidence back.

-mike

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe a good idea would be to try out the 1/2 6 max games for a little while

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this might be a very good idea. Playing full tables, you don't get nearly the experience playing from the first round onward with just one or two people that you do in 6-max. And you get much less work on your blind play. I think it also helps ramp up aggression a bit. Playing 1/2 6-max for a while helped turn shorthanded play from something I was either lost on or borderline fearful of to something I relished on regular tables because I figured I would do it better than people not as used to it. Even though I haven't become an accomplished shorthanded player or even close, it's already clear that my game has improved because of playing it. It sounds like dealing with the increased aggression, stealing, and blind defense of 6-max might improve your 3/6 game.

[thirddan]

can you guys still see the pics on homers thread?

[uw_madtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Then August went really well and I'm chugging along in september when... SLOTBOOM!

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif U...

[spamuell]

can you guys still see the pics on homers thread?


No. I think there might have been a more recent one, I was trying to find it but I couldn't.

[bisonbison]

He reposted the pictures in late august, but those links are busted too. What can you do?

[Festis]

Sience it looks like you have so many friends here in the forum that are confident that you should be beating 3/6, would it not be really easy to get one of them to take a look at your pt stats.. see witch type of hands you are loosing with and stuff..? I'm not good at giving examples here..but many good people have gotten this help(for one exemple Davidross)

/Johan

[StellarWind]

We've seen a lot of hands. We know that Chess doesn't play badly enough that you would expect to see answers in his stats.

Stats are good for diagnosing gross errors like: much too loose preflop, coldcalls too many hands, passive on the flop, etc.

They don't pick up subtle leaks or simply too many random mistakes.

If you keep this stats stuff up we are going to have to listen to SampleSizeMan again /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[MicroBob]

hi chess -

allow me to offer another cyber-pat-on-the-back and go-back-and-get'em-when-you're-ready.


some of the 3/6 players ar pretty tight....but there are enough silly fishy friends to make them worthwhile.
switch tables if you don't like it.


others have offered their recs so i'm tossing in mine.

1 - get on the waiting lists for a couple of games and just observe for a couple of orbits. you should see SOMEONE cold-call PF with A9o or 85s or whatever. take frequent trips to the HH thingee in the upper-right corner and see what cards aren't getting shown.

2 - maybe run 4 of the 3/6 tables (or more if you are on other skins) for a few hours and load up some HH's into a seperate p-tracker database. If you get enough hands then you should be able to export some stats on some of your opponents and I promise you'll see some VPIP-26, PFR-2 type players as well as VPIP-65, PFR-15.
They're not everywhere....but they're around.
It's also helpful to make the proper adjustments against the VPIP-12, PFR-1 types (if they raise PF then you can pretty much get out of the way).


I'm not saying that one needs to have a boat-load on stats on your opponents to bet 3/6....but it sure couldn't hurt....and finding a few players with juicy looking stats could help your confidence.


also - in my experience, getting on the longer waiting-list for the highest pot-av game isn't always the best way to go. often-times, by the time you get there whatever fish were around have left and you're just getting into a game with a bunch of rocks who were drawn-in by slightly dated pot-avg info.
if there's an open-seat at an 8xBB game i'll take that one and will skip the game that's 11xBB with 14 players waiting.



don't get intimidated. keep that PFR high and it will come around.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
also - in my experience, getting on the longer waiting-list for the highest pot-av game isn't always the best way to go. often-times, by the time you get there whatever fish were around have left and you're just getting into a game with a bunch of rocks who were drawn-in by slightly dated pot-avg info.
if there's an open-seat at an 8xBB game i'll take that one and will skip the game that's 11xBB with 14 players waiting.



[/ QUOTE ]

Very good post Micro

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
if there's an open-seat at an 8xBB game i'll take that one and will skip the game that's 11xBB with 14 players waiting.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I've been pretty much doing. And while most tables usually have 1-2 bad players, I haven't been able to find the juicy tables that others seem to find. I'll jump out if a table seems overly tight or uncomfortably aggressive, but otherwise I felt I needed to learn how to play in the "average" 3/6 games that have presented themselves to me.

[sluttysteve]

question for you bob, i know this has been discussed countless other times, but how do i set up PT so that it tracks hands of tables that i'm observing?

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Pat has an easy tutorial for this. You need the latest patch, which is patch "O" (as in the letter after N). This has a very simple setup.

[sluttysteve]

already have the patch, just wondering if i have to play a hand to get the histories in

[MicroBob]

it automatically stores the hands on your computer (assuming you have set to do this) regardless of whether you are playing in the hand or not.


i try to keep sepearate data-bases now for my own hands and the hands that i'm not playing at all. but it's kind of tough i think.

[spamuell]

He reposted the pictures in late august, but those links are busted too. What can you do?

That's what I thought but PMed Homer about it and he says he can still see them (in the second last post in the thread, no one can see them at the top due to remote linking problems).

Do people mind posting whether or not they can see them? Come on, I know you're all itching to get your post counts up. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The link is here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=977448&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb =5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

Thanks.

[uw_madtown]

Graphs no goot.

[RED_RAIN]

It could very well be variance.

For nearly the last 8k hands at 3/6 I have run at an average of 4.5% Hands won. This is not that good. I am usually a bit down, even, or just a bit up after each session.

I'm starting to get more 7-8% Hands won which is a lot more normal and the BB/100 is going up fast.

Also, I would look at perhaps your SB VP$IP as I was not adjusting correctly for this blind structure.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

No good.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
No good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right-click the picture
Choose properties
Highlight the URL and copy it
Paste it into a new browser

Read and enjoy

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

oops, it looks like he took them down

this procedure works for sites that don't allow remote linking, like angelfire

[pudley4]

B&amp;M only (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=445039&amp; fpart=&amp;PHPSESSID=)

Follow the same instructions as above (right click, copy and paste)

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, it's nice that you and Bison are so confident that I can beat games online higher than 2/4. Maybe if and when this begins to happen I'll start to believe it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it.

EDIT: I think Party 3/6 is hugely swingy compared to 2/4. I hovered near break-even for about 8k hands and went through surreal up- and downswings immediately after. After like 25k hands at 3/6 and a long break where I played live almost exclusively I think I'm finally getting really comfortable at 3/6 within the last two months or so.

[Surfbullet]

can't see 'em - i'm running the newest version of Mozilla.

Surf

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, it's nice that you and Bison are so confident that I can beat games online higher than 2/4. Maybe if and when this begins to happen I'll start to believe it.
[ QUOTE ]
I believe it.


[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too, FWIW. Chesspain,I have been reading your posts for at least nine months now I think (maybe more). If your play has improved half as much as the quality of your posts then I am sure you can beat $3/6. That said, you need to feel confident to play your best and for it to be fun. Drop down when you feel you need to and continue to take shots. Try to extend your stay at $3/6 for longer peiods until you feel comfortable. There is never any shame in dropping down for whatever reason. I do it all the time, including for reasons other than just plain sucking at poker. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I think Party 3/6 is hugely swingy compared to 2/4.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree. A lot of people say that $3/6 isnot that much tougher and in a sense that is true. You still see lots of bad players and it is not overwhelmingly aggressive. Still, in $2/4, becuase of the loose and passive nature of the game, there are a lot of hands you can play pre-flop that can flop big and win you a big pot, which in turn can get you unstuck quickly. A lot of these early position limping hands have to be dumped in $3/6 or you will find yourself with a major leak. The slight increase in aggression also increases variance of course.

Anyway, best of luck. Please keep us posted.

Colgin