Slowplaying (re-post)

(The archives for this forum are currently not accessible, so I'm reposting this.)


I think there are very, very few situations in NL/PL hold'em where the decision to slowplay is clearly more profitable than otherwise. In limit hold'em, I cannot think of a situation where you should ever slowplay.


My objection to slow playing is not entirely based on the fear of suckouts. In fact, fear of suckouts has little to do with it. It's a matter of how to most profitably play your hands. And in NL hold'em, I think betting is always the way to go.


The biggest problem with slowplaying is that you give away your hand by doing so. Whenever somebody "wakes up" in a later round it's pretty obvious they were slowplaying. I'm not talking about when a scare card comes like a third flush card and they move all-in. If somebody wakes up at that point, they are representing a flush, not slowplaying a set. So when somebody wakes up on an innocuous turn or river, you can be fairly sure they've slowplayed a monster. This usually means a set or a straight. If you are even THINKING of slowplaying two pair then you really need your head examined.


It's simple really. Somebody is MUCH more likely to commit their stack on the flop with a hand like top pair than on the river. So if you've got a monster, get top pair to play aggressively with you right there on the flop. Another problem is that by slowplaying you often pass up a chance to get ANY chips because somebody with a hand like top pair who would have played with you will have to slowdown once the board gets scarier. Now you've lost profit because the board is too scary for anyone to do anything.


By not slowplaying, you also put more doubt into your opponents heads, especially if you have position. If three people check to me on the button and I bet out with the nuts, I'm MUCH more likely to get action than if I wait until the turn or river. The button should bet out with quads as far as I'm concerned. You are (hopefully) betting aggressively from the button regularly, so there's no need to disguise a big hand when you have it.


The other problem with slowplaying is that your opponent either has NO chance of catching up or a SLIM chance of beating you. Let's say the flop comes KKQ and I've got 99. Even if a 9 comes on the river, I'm not putting in much money. MAYBE I'll call a pot size bet if I'm in a bluff-catching mood. I'm certainly not going to call an all-in bet by the button who suddenly wakes up and pushes $2000 into a $300 pot.


So even when you let them catch up slightly, you don't make much. But you lose your whole stack when they catch up enough to beat you.


By betting instead of checking you also look like you're protecting a vulnerable hand. Then, you might actually get action from somebody who improves because they won't think you have such a big hand to begin with. Like with the 99 example. Let's say I have the button and the nut full house bets the size of the pot. We've both got huge stacks. I might call because I want to make a move on him if he checks or I might think he's bluffing. If a nine comes on the turn and he bets again, I'm MUCH more likely to commit or at least raise a good amount. Instead, let's say he checks to me and I bet the flop. He calls and check-raises me all-in on the turn. Even if I hit that nine, I will release more often than if he had started out as the aggressor. I'll put him on a slowplay.


Many other players love to slowplay big hands. That's why I think it's best to keep betting with big monsters, because they expect you to slowplay like they would. You will get action from people with decent hands. On a flop like KKQ, you might get action from a queen if you bet from the button. You might get action from a straight draw. You might get bluffed by someone who just doesn't believe you have a king. And you MIGHT get action from some fool who slowplayed QQ preflop or from some poor bastard with AK or KJ or KT or K9 or K2 if the players are bad enough. I've made HUGE pots by betting on the button with a monster. Somebody comes over the top, and it's over.


If you want to induce a bluff by slowplaying out of position, it's just as valid to induce a bluff by betting. An overly aggressive player will bluff-raise when you bet, or bluff when you check, so you might as well bet and get more in there.


So, while slowplaying can be a profitable move, I think you make MORE money by not slowplaying. The concept of sucking people in for more money when you hold a monster doesn't hold water in my opinion. You want to instigate action, you want to induce people to make a play at you, you want to get the other guy who was slowplaying the second nuts to finally wake up. If all the money doesn't go in until the river when you flopped the nuts, you are not in good shape. Why is all that money going in now? With a board of KKQTA, if I have KQ but all the money goes in on the river when an ace shows up, I've got to be worried. It's obvious to everyone that I slowplayed a big full house or that I MADE a big full house. So if somebody is there with me, he must have me beat.


The extra few chips I might make by waiting for someone to take a stab at the pot will not make up for the times when I can double my whole stack by instigating action, and it certainly won't make up for those times when I LOSE my whole stack by giving someone a cheap river.


One last note. As target pointed out below, when playing pot limit, it's even more important not to slowplay because you lose opportunity to get a lot of chips into the pot. Keep betting and building a pot.


natedogg

Let me give you an example of a hand that I slowplayed in the 340 WPF no limit event on Sunday. There were two callers and I was in the big blind with 22. The flop came something like 8 5 2 offsuit. I can't imagine that betting this flop is the right thing to do. Checking this flop and having it get checked around is not at all a bad thing. There are many cards that can come off on the turn that might make one of the callers a second best hand. As it turned out, and Ace came off the deck on the turn and I bet out. Neither of them had an ace, but they very well could have and paid me off whereas they would have definetly folded to a bet on the flop.


As a rule, slowplaying is not correct, but there are many situations in which it is very much the right thing to do.


Peace

Goodie

I have almost no tournament experience. Tournaments and live ring game play are very very different. I will point out that checking is not necessarily slowplaying. Check-calling would be more of a slow-play.


One thing about slowplaying. It DOES become correct the less aggressive you are. If you don't often try to pick up pots or raise with position preflop, then slowplaying is probably the way to go when you hit the flop hard. This should be obvious.


But I believe you should normally be playing fairly aggressively, pushing hard when people show weakness and picking up uncontested pots whenever the opportunity presents itself. If this is the case, slowplaying is silly. Bet when you have a hand, because you're betting so often without one.


In the case of your 22 hand, you may be looking at this wrong. You didn't get any action did you? I don't see why you think slowplaying was correct.


That ace on the turn may have killed any action you might have got from your opponents. Even with mere overcards, you might have got a call or even a bluff-raise on the flop. If your opponents held 67 or 34, any 8, any overpair like TT, even A5 or overcards, you might have got some action on that flop. By checking and waiting for the scare card to come on the turn, you MIGHT have killed your own action. Just a thought. Those times when you are facing 85, A8, or a big overpair, you're going to get the action anyway, so don't slow down. The only thing that can hurt you is if a scare card comes and puts the frighteners on someone who may have played hard with you on the flop.


In other words, I think slowplaying your 22 was a mistake, unless you are generally very timid on the flop. Even then, you should probably bet out and hope somebody caught a piece.


However, I have almost no tourney experience, so this situation may call for a slowplay. Stack sizes, antes, blinds and tourney stage were not mentioned.


natedogg

[thebroker]

just bumping this one up 2 the top.

[King_J]

I just hate to slowplay. I´ve played online for about 1 year and as far I can remember I have only won one single stack because of slowplaying (I flopped a set, checked the flop and allowed a guy to hit a runner-runner two pair)

I have flopped monsters and I have tried to slowplay them alot of times but I have lost cash because of that. Im sure of that.

I also remember a pot where I flopped quads from button in a NL game. They checked to me I bet (not that much, but I bet)
turn gave someone a flush and we got our stacks in. If I had waited and checked maybe he wouldn´t move all-in, becuse it would have looked suspicious?

I´m not saying it cant be correct to slowplay. But In most cases It is just better to bet raise and re-raise with monsters rather than slowlaying them!

[Daithi]

I rarely slowplay for the reasons you already provided, but I have slow played in one scenario.

When playing a tournament with huge blinds and just a few people left. Last night I flopped Aces full of Queens. I checked and let the guy on the button bet the flop, and then just called. I checked the turn and he bet all-in on a total bluff.

[eighb]

10-20 pl at commerce during the la poker classic, i had just cashed a 9k tourney 3rd place and decided to mix it up with the "big boys". i had 5k on the table as did most. utg raises and i cold call with 88 we go head up. flop is 788 utg check with an "i give up" look. he was an armenian slime ball and his play was transparent i felt he had hit big so i bet $150, he raised me $150 more and now i was sure he had 77 and not an overpair. i figured if i made another small raise he would just call and "trap" me on the turn, so i raised back $250 more and he made a "crying" call. on the turn (6c) he checked i bet $1100 and he went all in. i immediately call and scooped a 10k pot. this probably would have never happened if i had checked behind him on the flop, called a moderate bet on the turn and waited to the river to raise. no one could beleive i had quads.

[Nottom]

A lot of this sort of advice falls apart when play heads up. Slowplaying is a lot stronger IMO shorthanded than at a full table.

[aeon_blues]

While there are exeptions, I agree that slow playing a beatable hand is generaly a mistake. I have made a lot of money off of free cards against monster hands. An example of a disasterous slow play happend yesterday to my favor. I'm playing .5 1 NL holdem on Partypoker, and I limped in on the button with KJ off, no callers before me, the sm blind call, and BB raises $1. Flop is A Q 4 rainbow. check check check, turn is 9, check check check, river is 10, no flush possible, UTG bets $5, fold, I raise to $20, the Small blind raises all in, and shows down with 444, I chat "Good slow play"

But yah, he was greedy, and paid a big price for not taking the pot on the flop with atleast a small bet.

A big mistake in NL or PL is limping or puting in a small raise with AA, unless there's a mainiac at the table. Offten I call a $1 raise with small pair, catch a set, and get raised all in by AA. The thing about AA is, if your raise big enough pre flop, you can kill your opponets implied odds, so even when they beat you, they lost in the long run. And if you do limp in, you should fold if a solid player is betting like they have a monster, they probably do.

There are times I slow play, like with an A high flush, or when I flop a full house. Also, betting weak with a full house or an A high flush can be very profitable, cause offten someone will draw to a dead hand, and give a lot of action when they make, or will raise with a weaker hand for value, or even try for a steel. Betting is never a bad idea, but you should slow play sometimes, to mix up your play.

Aeon Blues

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I think that much of what you say here has some merit. But I think you're really missing the fundamental definition of when a slowplay is appropriate.

Slowplays should be undertaken when there is little or NO chance that you can be outdrawn, AND where giving a free card will be likely to give someone else a second best hand. In many of the examples you give here, that is not the case.

With the 99, there's no legitimate reason to slowplay anywhere in the hand. Whether pre-flop, on the flop, or on the turn after making a boat, 99 in your example doesn't meet the criterion for a correct slowplay.

You didn't mention those times when a slowplay IS correct, though they may admittedly be rare, or few and far between. For instance:

You raise in a limit game with KK. Five call. The flop is K K 6 rainbow. There's no way you can tell me that slowplaying here is going to automatically be the wrong play in all situations. With that many opponents, it's going to be a pretty small pot if you win it on the flop. However, you might be lucky enough to hit a turn card that will allow you to win an extra bet or two (or even more). That alone would make the slowplay better than betting out on the flop. You have a near 100% lock, but you'll almost certainly get no action on if you bet it. So what other move is there but to check? There are many hands you could hold which you would play this way.

You must weight the extra $$ you'll gain from slowplaying vs. the amount you'll lose the times you lose the pot (from slowplaying) and calculate the difference. If slowplaying is better, then check. If betting is better, then bet. Simple as that. And there are times when slowplaying is better.

Though they may be fewer and further between that most players realize, which may have been the underlying theme to your point.

One point to support your theme is shown in S/S, where Doyle recommends betting a small set on the flop (in NL), hoping to catch someone with a hand. It's also my opinion that betting it on the flop (from EP) in a limit game is best, hoping to three-bet a raiser.

So the one thing about your post I'm disagreeing with is its absolute nature. Nothing in poker is absolute, or at least not all the time....

al

[maplepig]

i will even slow play a top pair when my opponent is so desperate for chips. They just can't afford to miss the chance of betting the checker out.

[maplepig]

>If you want to induce a bluff by slowplaying out of
>position, it's just as valid to induce a bluff by betting.
>An overly aggressive player will bluff-raise when you bet,
>or bluff when you check, so you might as well bet and get
>more in there.

Here's the problem, there are too many players who will bluff or semi-bluff bet often, but not bluff raise. On a flop like
9 T 2
I will make a big bet on LP with JK, KQ, K9, A9, Q9, J9 probably a lot more if checked to me and table is tight, but if someone already bet the pot, I'll just fold.

>The biggest problem with slowplaying is that you give away
>your hand by doing so.

By always not slowplaying, you are also giving away your hand. I'll just make a small note on you "does not slowplay" after observing your games for a while, then on a flop of QQK, if you don't bet into me, I know you don't have a Q. Now I don't have to do anything, all I have to do is to call behind you, if you check to me, I make my move. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I agree betting is better than slowplaying, but you still have to slowplay enough time to make yourself unreadable.
just my thoughts.

[JMarks]

you dont have to slowplay to make yourself unreadable. what if I bet into you every time i have a str8 draw flush draw 2 overcards one pair and greater. does my bet tell you much? also check raising is not slowplaying, and I might do that too. how predictable am I?

[maplepig]

your bet doesn't tell me anything, but if you don't bet, that tells me something if you never check a monster.

[JMarks]

I could have sworn I mentioned the ol check an raise as part of my arsenal.

[JP789]

Most of my experience w/NL or PL is online. I catch a lot of slowplayers when they call me on the flop after I have bet/raised w/my nut flush draw then wait untill the river to push all-in (of course by then it's mostly a call all-in). It is definately more profitable than check calling in order to hit your nut flush while hoping another player hits a flush as well. Plus if the players are timid often you will win it right there on the flop. IMO

JP