TT Hand

[RacersEdge]

I thought of pushing with this - but pretty much planned on pushing no matter what the flop hoping the board was scary enough to the raiser to produce a fold. I can't see check- folding this to the river with only 3 BBs left. Comments?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed)

Button (t264)
SB (t1930)
BB (t1252)
UTG (t1577)
Hero (t1265)
CO (t1712)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t600</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t500, BB folds.

Flop: (t1400) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t665 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t665.

[rjb03]

Push preflop while you're pretty much a guaranteed favorite.

[codewarrior]

Push pf. It's not even close.

[SmileyEH]

This is terrible.

Push preflop.

-SmileyEH

[codewarrior]

Push pf, you can't call this board.

[RacersEdge]

What's the reason you think this is a definite push PF and not a standard open raise with a pair PF in a 6 handed table? Is the 6X BB your main reason? I'm not convinced a push is the only good play here.

[ilya]

Ok, I'm gonna play the devil's advocate for a second here and say that a 3xbb raise may actually be the right play at the low buy-ins, provided you push on the flop no matter what.
Getting a better hand to fold is not part of the reason for pushing here, as there is no way that anyone with AA-JJ is going to fold. Nor are many people at this level likely to fold AK-AJ, KQ-KJ, or QJ. So, if you these were the only hands you were ever up against, and you always pushed on the flop, you would actually gain equity by getting some of those hands to fold on the flop when they would have beaten you on the turn/river.
So, presumably the idea behind pushing is to get hands like A8 and K9 to fold because they might hit their overpair otherwise. However...when you raise to 600, someone calling you with, say, A8o is making a substantial FTOP 'mistake.' And, if you commit to the policy of of 3xbb &amp; all-in-on-flop-no-matter-what, you are actually reducing your risk of busting against someone loose enough to call all-in with that hand from about 30% to about, say, 23% (since they'll sometimes call your all-in with nothing but Ace-high on the flop and hit their Ace later) -- all while still putting yourself in a position to win a substantial pot.
Since the opposition at this level is indeed likely to call all-in with hands like A8o, maybe raising is the way to go. Yes, they will be making a smaller FTOP mistake by calling preflop...but there's still the potential that they'll make the terrible mistake of calling on the flop with A-high, and the reduction in risk to balance that out.

[SmileyEH]

If you don't push you are pot comitting yourself. This gives hands like AJ the oppourtunity to either think they are good and raise all in forcing a coinflip...or letting them see a flop you can't fold.

-SmileyEH

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't push you are pot comitting yourself. This gives hands like AJ the oppourtunity to either think they are good and raise all in forcing a coinflip...or letting them see a flop you can't fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I see your reasoning. So would you say then that this play with AA would be correct since it might make other hands think they are good?

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
So, if you these were the only hands you were ever up against, and you always pushed on the flop, you would actually gain equity by getting some of those hands to fold on the flop when they would have beaten you on the turn/river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't mean "gain equity," I mean "reduce your risk of busting."

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't push you are pot comitting yourself. This gives hands like AJ the oppourtunity to either think they are good and raise all in forcing a coinflip...or letting them see a flop you can't fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I see your reasoning. So would you say then that this play with AA would be correct since it might make other hands think they are good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily. I think the way to play a monster in this spot is to do whatever you think will be most likely to get someone all-in with your preflop. Depending on your table image and the styles of the other players, that could mean anything from limping to min-raising to pushing.

[SmileyEH]

Yes, a play like this with AA or KK is good against bad players who don't really understand what pot comitted means.

Very rare will it be though to raise more than 30% of your stack without going all in.

-SmileyEH