Schneids
10-02-2004, 05:14 PM
fsuplayer sent me the following hand that I played against him a few nights ago, and then we had the following discussion about it afterwards...
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Schneids is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">MP <font color="purple">(fsuplayer)</font> raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button <font color="purple">(Mega-LAG)</font> 3-bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Schneids caps</font>, MP <font color="purple">(fsuplayer)</font> calls, Button <font color="purple">(Mega-LAG)</font> calls.
Flop: (12.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, fsuplayer calls, Mega-LAG calls.
Turn: (7.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, fsuplayer calls, <font color="CC3333">Mega-LAG raises</font>, Schneids calls, fsuplayer calls.
River: (13.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Schneids checks, fsuplayer checks, <font color="CC3333">Mega-LAG bets</font>, Schneids calls, fsuplayer calls.
Final Pot: 16.75 BB
Results in white below: <font color="white">
Schneids has Qc Qh (two pair, queens and nines).
fsuplayer has Kc Ks (two pair, kings and nines).
CO doesn't show.
Mega-LAG has As Jc (two pair, jacks and nines).
Outcome: fsuplayer wins 16.75 BB. </font>
Fsuplayer (2:36:39 PM): i need to raise this turn dont I?....
Schneids (2:37:11 PM): I was meaning to talk to you about that hand specifically
Fsuplayer (2:37:19 PM): i got stuck in my panties on that one
Schneids (2:37:29 PM): And I was actually considering posting that hand, myself...
Fsuplayer (2:37:31 PM): that and i was on the phone..never good
Fsuplayer (2:38:02 PM): i raised with KK, looked back and saw you capped it and was like WTF?
Schneids (2:38:20 PM): I think you're in a tough spot with me still in.
Schneids (2:38:36 PM): I think calling the turn is fine though I don't know why you didn't raise on the flop
Fsuplayer (2:39:01 PM): i thought you guys had AK, JJ,QQ. I called the flop planning to raise the turn actually
Schneids (2:39:08 PM): You need to raise on the flop to try to make sure LAGBOY folds ace-whatever or some running diamonds hand
Fsuplayer (2:39:28 PM): then the jack hit, and i figure i am ahead of only QQ now...so i didnt raise
Schneids (2:39:32 PM): and then the third diamond scared you into calling (plus with it being a jack, as a possible jj filling hand...)
Fsuplayer (2:39:42 PM): yes exactly
Schneids (2:39:47 PM): if you had the king of diamonds i think you can raise the turn
Schneids (2:39:51 PM): but calling the turn without it is fine
Fsuplayer (2:39:58 PM): again, exactly
Schneids (2:40:03 PM): which is why you need to raise the flop
Schneids (2:40:10 PM): raise before the board makes it so you can't
Fsuplayer (2:40:32 PM): yeah true, sometimes i try and get cute in those siuations to get in a turn raise
Schneids (2:40:37 PM): i was wondering, since i thought long and hard about this on the turn: if i 3-bet on the turn do you fold?
Fsuplayer (2:41:13 PM): no
Fsuplayer (2:41:25 PM): bc i know you know he sucks
Schneids (2:41:47 PM): i was SO CLOSE to pulling the trigger and 3-betting on the turn but didn't because I decided you either had a high diamond that was calling, a PP with a high diamond and therefore easily calling, or else a hand that will fold for one bet anyway so i don't need to reraise
Fsuplayer (2:42:19 PM): yeah, for better or worse, i am not folding KK there
Fsuplayer (2:42:58 PM): if i raise the flop, do you cap?
Fsuplayer (2:43:08 PM): or turn CR or call down?
Schneids (2:43:16 PM): if you raise the flop i 3-bet the flop every time
Schneids (2:43:30 PM): and if you cap i go into call down mode
Schneids (2:43:39 PM): on that board i might fold on the river to you tho
Fsuplayer (2:43:43 PM): i wouldnt, i would raise the turn again
Schneids (2:43:48 PM): depends if i'm playing especially well
Schneids (2:43:58 PM): don't raise the turn against me
Schneids (2:44:07 PM): cap the flop it will tie me into a showdown
Schneids (2:44:17 PM): if you raise the turn again you're giving me an excuse to fold
Schneids (2:44:28 PM): i don't like making big laydowns, but remember, i can hand read
Fsuplayer (2:44:30 PM): yeah true...there was a post on that i read today
Schneids (2:44:50 PM): if the action on the flop goes bet raise 3bet call, then turn goes bet raise... what am i putting you on?
Schneids (2:45:02 PM): i can't even beat jj, the one other hand that could just call my 3bet
Schneids (2:45:30 PM): and especially when the turn is a third diamond. raising would be really bad because now you've also played it like a flush draw
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)
Preflop: Schneids is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">MP <font color="purple">(fsuplayer)</font> raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button <font color="purple">(Mega-LAG)</font> 3-bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">Schneids caps</font>, MP <font color="purple">(fsuplayer)</font> calls, Button <font color="purple">(Mega-LAG)</font> calls.
Flop: (12.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, fsuplayer calls, Mega-LAG calls.
Turn: (7.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Schneids bets</font>, fsuplayer calls, <font color="CC3333">Mega-LAG raises</font>, Schneids calls, fsuplayer calls.
River: (13.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Schneids checks, fsuplayer checks, <font color="CC3333">Mega-LAG bets</font>, Schneids calls, fsuplayer calls.
Final Pot: 16.75 BB
Results in white below: <font color="white">
Schneids has Qc Qh (two pair, queens and nines).
fsuplayer has Kc Ks (two pair, kings and nines).
CO doesn't show.
Mega-LAG has As Jc (two pair, jacks and nines).
Outcome: fsuplayer wins 16.75 BB. </font>
Fsuplayer (2:36:39 PM): i need to raise this turn dont I?....
Schneids (2:37:11 PM): I was meaning to talk to you about that hand specifically
Fsuplayer (2:37:19 PM): i got stuck in my panties on that one
Schneids (2:37:29 PM): And I was actually considering posting that hand, myself...
Fsuplayer (2:37:31 PM): that and i was on the phone..never good
Fsuplayer (2:38:02 PM): i raised with KK, looked back and saw you capped it and was like WTF?
Schneids (2:38:20 PM): I think you're in a tough spot with me still in.
Schneids (2:38:36 PM): I think calling the turn is fine though I don't know why you didn't raise on the flop
Fsuplayer (2:39:01 PM): i thought you guys had AK, JJ,QQ. I called the flop planning to raise the turn actually
Schneids (2:39:08 PM): You need to raise on the flop to try to make sure LAGBOY folds ace-whatever or some running diamonds hand
Fsuplayer (2:39:28 PM): then the jack hit, and i figure i am ahead of only QQ now...so i didnt raise
Schneids (2:39:32 PM): and then the third diamond scared you into calling (plus with it being a jack, as a possible jj filling hand...)
Fsuplayer (2:39:42 PM): yes exactly
Schneids (2:39:47 PM): if you had the king of diamonds i think you can raise the turn
Schneids (2:39:51 PM): but calling the turn without it is fine
Fsuplayer (2:39:58 PM): again, exactly
Schneids (2:40:03 PM): which is why you need to raise the flop
Schneids (2:40:10 PM): raise before the board makes it so you can't
Fsuplayer (2:40:32 PM): yeah true, sometimes i try and get cute in those siuations to get in a turn raise
Schneids (2:40:37 PM): i was wondering, since i thought long and hard about this on the turn: if i 3-bet on the turn do you fold?
Fsuplayer (2:41:13 PM): no
Fsuplayer (2:41:25 PM): bc i know you know he sucks
Schneids (2:41:47 PM): i was SO CLOSE to pulling the trigger and 3-betting on the turn but didn't because I decided you either had a high diamond that was calling, a PP with a high diamond and therefore easily calling, or else a hand that will fold for one bet anyway so i don't need to reraise
Fsuplayer (2:42:19 PM): yeah, for better or worse, i am not folding KK there
Fsuplayer (2:42:58 PM): if i raise the flop, do you cap?
Fsuplayer (2:43:08 PM): or turn CR or call down?
Schneids (2:43:16 PM): if you raise the flop i 3-bet the flop every time
Schneids (2:43:30 PM): and if you cap i go into call down mode
Schneids (2:43:39 PM): on that board i might fold on the river to you tho
Fsuplayer (2:43:43 PM): i wouldnt, i would raise the turn again
Schneids (2:43:48 PM): depends if i'm playing especially well
Schneids (2:43:58 PM): don't raise the turn against me
Schneids (2:44:07 PM): cap the flop it will tie me into a showdown
Schneids (2:44:17 PM): if you raise the turn again you're giving me an excuse to fold
Schneids (2:44:28 PM): i don't like making big laydowns, but remember, i can hand read
Fsuplayer (2:44:30 PM): yeah true...there was a post on that i read today
Schneids (2:44:50 PM): if the action on the flop goes bet raise 3bet call, then turn goes bet raise... what am i putting you on?
Schneids (2:45:02 PM): i can't even beat jj, the one other hand that could just call my 3bet
Schneids (2:45:30 PM): and especially when the turn is a third diamond. raising would be really bad because now you've also played it like a flush draw