Home game dealer error.

[River2Pair]

8-handed NLHE.
Blinds 2/4.

UTG limps. UTG+1 limps. MP1 limps. MP2 limps. CO limps. Button limps. In SB, I look down to find K /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I pick up a stack of $20s, and start peeling a few off, figuring out exactly how much the raise was going to be, when inexplicably the dealer starts flopping cards. He turns up and ace and a nine, when I speak up that I hadn't acted yet.

My question to those of you who play home games on a regular basis with non-idiots, what should be done here?

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
8-handed NLHE.
Blinds 2/4.

UTG limps. UTG+1 limps. MP1 limps. MP2 limps. CO limps. Button limps. In SB, I look down to find K /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I pick up a stack of $20s, and start peeling a few off, figuring out exactly how much the raise was going to be, when inexplicably the dealer starts flopping cards. He turns up and ace and a nine, when I speak up that I hadn't acted yet.

My question to those of you who play home games on a regular basis with non-idiots, what should be done here?

[/ QUOTE ]

The card that was the burn card should remain the burn card. The flop cards should be shuffled back in with the remainder of the deck and the flop re-dealt after all betting action has been completed that should have been completed prior to the dealer's error.

I don't want to see 15 different versions of what everyone should or could or might or hopes to be done. This is how it's done in a real cardroom and according to Robert's Rules of Poker.

[LetsRock]

I agree. (For whatever that's worth.)

[Stew]

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I agree. (For whatever that's worth.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for agreeing. Sorry if I sounded a little uppity. I love these kind of questions b/c there are a lot of new people playing the game and there are going to rules and situations that arise that they don't how to handle or what to do.

I just get tired of people giving several different answers that are all incorrect. There are procedural rules that are very well defined and followed to the T by every single cardroom. Sure, there are going to be a few things where procedures are slightly different. But, I've seen answers to other questions that are just downright outrageous and it's unfortunate that those people new to playing the game aren't able to get the proper answers so that when they venture into a cardroom they don't look like a horse's ass b/c they are used to it being done a different way at their home game.

Frankly, you can do whatever the heck you want in a home game in my opinion, as long as those rules are spelled out correctly prior to the game beginning. If not, then Robert's Rules of Poker should be referred to in all situations.

Personally, I find it easier if everyone would follow the proper rules and procedures in home games. Again, when someone from the home game ventures into a casino they aren't as intimidated b/c different rules and procedures are being followed (proper rules and procedures). Playing in a real cardroom the first time can be intimidating enough.

[emp1346]

Well Stew, I got a question for ya then since no one in the B&M forum seems to have a clue.

What is the procedure for when more than one card is accidentally burned while dealing a flop? It happened twice the other night, and no one was sure whether to pull the "correct" card out of the muck and flip it or just deal the next three cards as if nothing was wrong?

If you know the answer I'd appreciate it.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Well Stew, I got a question for ya then since no one in the B&M forum seems to have a clue.

What is the procedure for when more than one card is accidentally burned while dealing a flop? It happened twice the other night, and no one was sure whether to pull the "correct" card out of the muck and flip it or just deal the next three cards as if nothing was wrong?

If you know the answer I'd appreciate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that is a good question, I honestly don't know that answer for sure. However, I'll give it a shot. When you play in casino, the burn cards are always placed under the chips in the pot, not in the muck. So, I would assume it would be proper to pull out the bottom card (as the top of the two would be the appropriate burn card) and deal it out in the flop.

However, in a home game, if dealers are burning cards in the muck, I don't think that would be appropriate.

[Mojo Tooth]

If you consider the PURPOSE of burning a card, which is preventing a player from gaining information from a marked deck, then it really shouldn't matter if multiple cards are burned. As long as there are enough cards to finish the hand. Which, unless there are more than 23 players in the hand (!), will always be the case in holdem.

[TheTurk]

Funny you would say that every card room does this. Had a similiar thing happen at Foxwoods on Saturday in which the dealer starting dealing a second flop on the turn. The floor had no idea what to do and it took 3 of us to explain it to her. She thought we were making it up but finally she agreed and the correct procedure was followed.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
Funny you would say that every card room does this. Had a similiar thing happen at Foxwoods on Saturday in which the dealer starting dealing a second flop on the turn. The floor had no idea what to do and it took 3 of us to explain it to her. She thought we were making it up but finally she agreed and the correct procedure was followed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you explain exactly what happened as this isn't clear from your post as there are times where a second flop is appropriate, but I don't want to get into that now.

BTW, I'm pretty sure the floor at Foxwoods knows what to do.

[LetsRock]

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When you play in casino, the burn cards are always placed under the chips in the pot, not in the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the precise reason that the burn cards are kept seperate is two-fold:

1. It helps prevent the double burn - all the dealer has to do is look at the burn pile to determine if a burnn card is called for. Sometimes a dealer gets distracted between the burn and turn.

2. It's very easy to pull the correct card out of the burn pile in the event that a mistake is made.

I deal a lot in our home game and I started leaving the burn cards seperate for these very reasons - it helps A LOT!

[Al Mirpuri]

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I agree. (For whatever that's worth.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for agreeing. Sorry if I sounded a little uppity. I love these kind of questions b/c there are a lot of new people playing the game and there are going to rules and situations that arise that they don't how to handle or what to do.

I just get tired of people giving several different answers that are all incorrect. There are procedural rules that are very well defined and followed to the T by every single cardroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does not matter what rules are followed by what card rooms a home game has the right to play any set of rules it likes. (Though in the given example I agree with you.)

There are no "proper procedures" in poker as poker has no central body that defines what "proper procedure" is.

Some rules are more efficient than others. Some rules are just more convenient than others. Some rules are more just than others but there are no "correct" rules concerning the peripheral areas of poker. This is not math.

[Stew]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree. (For whatever that's worth.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for agreeing. Sorry if I sounded a little uppity. I love these kind of questions b/c there are a lot of new people playing the game and there are going to rules and situations that arise that they don't how to handle or what to do.

I just get tired of people giving several different answers that are all incorrect. There are procedural rules that are very well defined and followed to the T by every single cardroom.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does not matter what rules are followed by what card rooms a home game has the right to play any set of rules it likes. (Though in the given example I agree with you.)

There are no "proper procedures" in poker as poker has no central body that defines what "proper procedure" is.

Some rules are more efficient than others. Some rules are just more convenient than others. Some rules are more just than others but there are no "correct" rules concerning the peripheral areas of poker. This is not math.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regarding the home game rules, Did you read the rest of my post as I basically said that, the very one you are responding to, in fact.

There are proper procedures that MOST cardrooms follow and those are outlined in Robert's Rules of Poker and the TDA rules (for tournaments). Sure, there isn't a governing body that makes cardrooms follow such rules, but the rules are outlined and most places follow them.