new to no limit

I am a winning limit player with little experience playing no-limit (except heads-up with friends, but that is not at all applicable to a ring game). I have been playing some small stakes no-limit and have no idea if how I am playing is actually "correct". It seems to be working, but we all know that doesn't mean much. The games I have been playing in are very weak and passive in general, so I am not learning much from the other players. Here is a hand that I would like you to look at and tell me what you would do.


7 players, blinds .25/.50, average stack size ~$40, which is also my stack size.


Preflop


I have 9-8d on the button (#7). #4 limps, #6 raises to $1, I call.


My rationale: There is almost no chance the pot will be re-raised; I have good implied odds.


SB folds, BB and limper calls.


$4.25 in pot.


Flop:


2d 6d 9c


Checks to raiser who bets $4. I raise to $8.


I figure if I only call here, I might get a lot of heat on the turn. I may have the best hand, and I have a strong draw. It is hard to put the preflop raiser on a hand, because his preflop raise was so small. The only time I had seen big raises preflop at this table was when someone had a middle pocket pair (99-55). By raising I can now take a free card on the turn if I need to, and I make 2 big cards pay.


Raiser reraises all-in. Now what. I (obviously) figure he has something good, but a set seems unlikely given his small raise preflop. If he has an overpair, I have 14 outs, and there is still a small chance I have the best hand I guess. The raise was $29. After his reraise there is about $50 in the pot. What now?


Results:


I called. The turn and river were 7h (a moment of hope!) and Ah. Raiser showed AA. Assuming I knew this (or at least had a good idea he held a big pair) after he raised all-in, should I call?


Please chew me out if necessary.


Thanks,


Glenn

I would not have called the all in bet. You have top pair, weak ass kicker and non-nut draw. there are alot of hands that beat you at the moment and you can't be sure your draw to a flush is any good. In my limited no-limit experience you lose alot of money calling big bets with marginal hands. generally better to try and win by betting marginal hands and not calling with them.


Since you chose to raise on the flop you probably want to make a bigger raise. remember the purpose of raising in this situation is to make the guy fold, not to get a cheap card.

if you can count the outs -14- you should know you are a favorite against most hands he is likely to have and should welcome his allin raise, although a fold from him would be better for you.

Damn, Ray beat me to it. Yes, you are a slight favorite here. Also, what can he have? (yes, I know the results but before you saw his AA...)


No matter what he has, you are either slightly ahead or slightly ahead! There is only one scenario you don't like, and that's if he flopped a set on you. But in that case, you're still only about a 2-1 dog.


Actually, I don't have the math perfect, so he MIGHT be a slight favorite with AA, something like 52-48 or along those lines, especially if he has the A of diamonds. Also, if he has a 9 with a better kicker, he is definitely a slight favorite, but you still have all the diamonds and the 3 eights.


If he has an over pair, you have any diamond, any 9, any 8. That's a lot of outs.


If he has a flush draw, you are ahead AND you have two of his outs. He probably has overcard outs on you so you are only a slight favorite in that situation. He'll have 7 diamonds and 6 overcards.


In other words, you cannot possibly be a big dog in this situation. Bet aggressively, and the chances that he'll fold, plus the chances that you will win anyway make you a big favorite.


You're only error was that you should have raised a bit more on your initial flop raise, possibly even all-in but CERTAINLY you should have raised enough to get yourself pot-stuck.


With a stack of $39, when he bets $4 into a $4 pot, I'm raising to $20 or $25 with your hand.


natedogg

Thanks guys. Natedogg, your reply is almost exactly what I was thinking. Any time my flush draw isn't good, I'm already ahead because i have the 9d. Worst case is something like AxAd or KxKd, but I figured I still had pot odds. I agree that I should have raised more on the flop.


Thanks again,


Glenn

Glenn-

where is cleveland are they spreading this game? Is it possible to get a table full of the CWRU students together with enough social skills to interact?

JD

Yeah, I'll chew you out. I don't care about the limits or the implied odds. In a game like this, implied odds go out the window. Bottom line, YOU CANNOT CALL A RAISE, AT ANY LEVEL OF GAME, WITH A 89D, ESPECIALLY A POT LIMIT GAME.

Why risk any chips on draw hands? In weak games, it's so easy to clean up when you only play the monsters. You can literally win all of your money in hands where the other players are drawing dead. Playing the AK suited, flopping a top pair with a nut flush draw should be the only risk you ever take. With a 89D, sure, play it, Flop a nut straight draw with 4 to a flush, a completed straight or save your chips for a better situation. Don't give anything away.


I hope that helps, I hope I'm right. Good luck.


Bob

But, if you only play the monsters, players with any sense will learn to avoid you whenever you call and there is a high board. I think you were right to call him pre-flop for such a small raise. Your mistake was not putting pressure on him- your small raise indicated a draw- you should have reaised him 20 or so and put the pressure on him- if he calls, and looks a little upset about it, you know he has an overpair and is kicking himself for making that wimpy raise pre-flop. On the turn, you get another good card, put him all-in and make him cry to call. If he does and you lose the hand, you will benefit from an unpredictable reputation anyway, and he will continue to misplay his AA.

looks like Bob plays so tight you will have hard time making money off of him...but you can win more than him if you will play greater variety of starting hands....and I am specifically talking abouy N/L or P/L...not limit.


suited connectors such as you had can make you a lot of money, allthough you do not want to pay too much to see the flop.


any time you flop a pair combined with a flush or straight draw you have a very powerfull hand...even if cards are not faces. other guys were right about putting pressure on after the flop, even with AA he should fear whatever you have, if it is strong enough to allow you to move in.

yea you are wrong Bob. playing a full mix of hands will maximize your winnings. while only playing the best hands may make you a good winner its not the optimum strategy. just as only picking up big nuggets in a gold mine will make you rich, picking up all the nuggets is better.

Not in this case. Trying to pick up all the nuggets is comparible to trying to beat all the players.

In any game there are good and bad players. Focus on the bad players and I gurantee they pay you off every time you play. If your have to vary you game too much, your probably in the wrong game. Maybe to tough a game. I Bartend part time, I try to accomodate everyone but if I ever find a good tipper, I stay there, chat him up and rape his wallet. Focus on the suckers, it's the same situation.


I hope that made sense.


Bob

when you defend your position like that it suggests you are not listening, and thus perhaps not learning.


another weakness to your play is that others may better know where you are and not pay you off.


and even though, as Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute...they may not come to your table everytime.

Bob-


Unless you are in a game with TOTAL MULLETS, just playing the nuts is going to win you a few small pots. Good players will not continue to pay you off.


I've got the reputation of being about the tightest player in our weekly NL game, but can take advantage of that image by sometimes playing garbage when its cheap enough, either winning a big pot by hitting my garbage and no one puts me on it, or stealing if a flop and subsequent betting looks like it helps no one else.


Example - everyone has at least $1000. Blinds of $5-10, in early position I limp with 7-6o (I don't do this all the time, so I don't need to hear about playing this in lousy position, etc. I had been running pretty good and had what I thought a good image at the time). Two other players limp and the blinds just call. Flop is 9c-8d-2h. SB bets $50, BB folds. I think I could win it with a raise there, but decide I want others in/bigger pot, and just call. I know this risks a raise by the two players behind me, and I'm probably going to throw it away for a big raise. But both call. Now $250 in pot. Ac on the turn. SB makes $50 bet, I raise to $300. Because of my tight image, and because the other players in don't include the two calling stations in our game, they can put me on an A, or even stronger (like slow playing trips flop), everyone folds.


I'd be interested in criticism of my play/thoughts, but I've used above to illustrate how Bob's comment of just playing top group hand rankings may not be optimum strategy. You see so few strong hands, that if you play that way always, its not hard for others to figure out what you have, and you have REAL PROBLEMS getting paid off. Remember, in NL/PL, the objective is to win BIG POTS.

I looked at my horoscope and it said Glenn's hand will win 51% of the time after the flop if the Bad guy does not have a big diamond. I think though if you have a significant amount of your bankroll on the table that you are still better off to fold.

with money in the pot already you cant fold when the hands are around 50%. if you play that way you are giving up to much of the little edge a poker player lives on, and almost always with close hands the amount in the pot means a big 5 edge that cant be left on the table.

Something tells me that the games Bob says are too tough are the ones that paid for some Montana property for Ray. /images/wink.gif

I agree that playing a mix of hands is good.


The issue for me is that he called a mini-raise with 98s. I would be more comfortable calling if the raiser is a weak or inexperienced player.


I think 98s is best as a limping hand or the occasional pre-flop raise to mix things up.


Ken Poklitar