Is this SSH approved?

[blackaces13]

Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (9.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 11.25 BB, between Hero and UTG+1.</font>

[zram21]

Looks good to me.

Nice hand.

[detruncate]

Well played.

[Ajax410]

I don't know how much I like the pre-flop raise, but aside from that, it looks solid. Personally, with a bunch of limpers ahead of me, I would just call and hope for more callers - your hand is probably speculative - it doesn't have THAT much high card value - and you are likely to flop some kind of flush or straight draw - because of this, you'd love to have many callers, giving you pot odds to draw to a big hand. As it worked out, after the flop you played this very well - you should be aggressive with middle pair, especially in a big pot when you're the pre-flop raiser - I would also bet the river...however, your choice is solid also...well done!

Edit: Added content

[ArturiusX]

nice flop work, this is a good post for the rookies; remember, a raise can save you money on the turn!

[Piiop]

I would bet the turn here and check behind on the river unimproved. If you're check-raised it's an easy fold. By checking, you may be giving free cards to opponents holding overcards and str8 draws, and it's possible your hand is best.

Since you improved on the river, betting is good.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how much I like the pre-flop raise, but aside from that, it looks solid. Personally, with a bunch of limpers ahead of me, I would just call and hope for more callers - your hand is probably speculative - it doesn't have THAT much high card value - and you are likely to flop some kind of flush or straight draw - because of this, you'd love to have many callers, giving you pot odds to draw to a big hand. As it worked out, after the flop you played this very well - you should be aggressive with middle pair, especially in a big pot when you're the pre-flop raiser - I would also bet the river...however, your choice is solid also...well done!

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be a routine preflop raise for you.

At these limits, limpers limp with everything, and although your hand is not premium, it's certainly better than the limpers' hands. So, you want to get in more money with the best hand, even if your edge is small. You're right, you do want a lot of callers when you have big draws, and you still do, except now the pot is 2x as big which is better for you.

KTs plays well multiway exactly because of it's straight and flush potential. Instead of calling along and hoping to hit, you're now building a pot so when you hit, you when a big one. Raising preflop gives you odds to stay around and hit your big draws.

You also have position which is great. Opponents will frequently check to the raiser. You can use this opportunity to either bet or take a free card, which is very useful.

[Ajax410]

You don't think a raise is going to chase out any players? When I'm trying to assert myself at a table this is a definite raise in this position - but I might just limp otherwise...especially with many limpers ahead of me...I'm willing to consider that it's the wrong play though.

[Shalara]

Beautiful. I like the flop raise especially. Struck me as an example of that whole "if you're going to call anyway, it's often better to raise" deal.

What would you have done if the river was a blank?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn here

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered this, but then I decided that a big part of the reason for raising the flop was to take a free card on the turn if I didn't improve. Giving free cards to others would certainly be a concern if I felt that my hand was likely best at the moment. But in this hand I thought there was an excellent chance that I was behind to a weak Jack, so I felt that free cards stood to help me just as much as anyone else and I should just take it.

If my hand were KJ then I certainly bet the turn.

Does this make sense?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]

What would you have done if the river was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

If checked to I would have value bet. If there was a bet and no overcalls I would call. Anything else and I probably fold.

[Ajax410]

I just have difficulty with the concept that a raise pre-flop here is right. With speculative hands in mid-position it seems that we want more callers - not fewer. KTs has little high card value - it derives its value from the speculative natures of the flush and straight - don't we want more people in for the turn and river where draws make the most money? Yes, we love to build pots - but don't we build bigger pots by having more people in when we play drawing hands?

[raccon]

SSH suggests just to call with that hand on MP3.

[Ajax410]

So my decision to just call is vindicated...nice!

[Piiop]

The players are already in, they're not folding for one more bet preflop.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH suggests just to call with that hand on MP3.


[/ QUOTE ]

MP3 after 3 limpers is late position.

[Ajax410]

I understand the players are already in - but there are 3 players left to act who haven't put money in the pot. My point is not that a raise isn't +EV here, it's just that a call might be even more +EV. KTs derives its value from its speculative nature, not its high card nature. With speculative hands, you want as many people in the pot as you can. By raising, you're getting 4-5 addition small bets in the pot. By calling, you might get 1-2 more small bets from the players who folded to the big bets plus the additional hands playing after the flop/turn/river who will ultimately pay off your hand if you win. At worst, you lose 3 small bets by raising here. By calling, you could be giving yourself an opportunity to have 7-8 people in the hand when you hit your flush on the turn...

I would LOVE more response on this issue - I think its relatively complex and I would enjoy some true expert analysis.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
but there are 3 players left to act who haven't put money in the pot...With speculative hands, you want as many people in the pot as you can...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and hopefully they all fold to the raise so we can have the button. The hand is multiway already, you don't need every player at the table to play just because you have a hand that does well multiway.

[ QUOTE ]
By raising, you're getting 4-5 addition small bets in the pot. By calling, you might get 1-2 more small bets from the players who folded to the big bets plus the additional hands playing after the flop/turn/river who will ultimately pay off your hand if you win. At worst, you lose 3 small bets by raising here. By calling, you could be giving yourself an opportunity to have 7-8 people in the hand when you hit your flush on the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

You have no idea whether the players behind you are going to play or not. You also have no idea what the board is going to be. You can't give up the value you get by raising because you hope that more players will come in the pot. You also can't say that those players will pay you off when you hit your draw. What is important is *at this moment*. At this moment, raising has a higher EV than calling or folding.

[helpmeout]

KTs is no premium hand, if it was KTo you'd fold in this position so why raise?

The freecard play was nice and worked out for you.

[Ajax410]

Let me preface this by saying there is a chance I'm wrong, and that as I've tried to become more aggressive as a player, situations like these have become common raising situations.

I don't see why just calling is such a terrible decision. I can see a lot of situations where calling would lead to a better situation for the Hero. Of course we don't know what the 3 people acting after Hero will do, but we do know that they are less likely to call 2 bets than 1, and that we would love for them to be in the pot against our high speculative hand.

You obviously know what you are talking about - and I definitly respect your posts here and in other threads - but I don't know why a PF raise is a "great" play when ultimately you might be thinning the field before your speculative hand has even had an opportunity to see the flop.

Obviously the hand is multiway already, but a K high flush draw with 7 people seeing the turn will probably work out for us better than a K high flush with 4 people seeing the turn.

Since we will never know how the hand would have played out had Hero called, it seems like a moot point to argue...but I am curious if it's +EV to "give up" the button position in later bettings rounds in order to get 2-3 extra hands in against a speculative hand like KTs.

[helpmeout]

Sorry but raising a marginal hand like KTs with 4 players to come is silly.

For starters it could be dominated already by common limping hands like AT or KQ KJ and even worse one of the 4 players left to act could 3bet with a premium hand leaving you only with a flush draw against a few players.

[Piiop]

I don't see why just calling is such a terrible decision.

It's not a terrible decision, it's not even a bad decision. If I came out sounding that way, I apologize. I was trying to point out why one decision is better than the other.

but we do know that they are less likely to call 2 bets than 1, and that we would love for them to be in the pot against our high speculative hand.


Again, we can't really base our actions on what we think the people behind us might do. However, I want those players to fold. I would much rather have the button and have everyone check to me than the possibility of more players in the pot. So, the hand is already multiway and you do not need to entice more people to enter it.

ultimately you might be thinning the field before your speculative hand has even had an opportunity to see the flop.

True, I want the people behind me to fold, but that's because there are enough players in already. The reason you'd limp with this hand or other hands like QJs or A9s in early position is to encourage more limpers. Raising with these hands would be wrong because it would thin the field which you don't want because your hand does well multiway. And it would leave you with players who are probably holding a better starting hand than you. However, in this case, the 3 players you have in are plenty and the blinds might come along. (I'm not saying that I hope that they come in but that frequently blinds will -correctly- call raises in multiway pots from a LP player more than they would an EP raise in a shorthanded pot.)

but I am curious if it's +EV to "give up" the button position in later bettings rounds in order to get 2-3 extra hands in against a speculative hand like KTs.

I think you're focusing too much on just trying to get as many people in against you as possible when you have a drawing hand. That's important, but remember you will win with this hand with less than a flush or straight.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry but raising a marginal hand like KTs with 4 players to come is silly.

For starters it could be dominated already by common limping hands like AT or KQ KJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Not playing this hand for fear of domination is ridiculous. We both know many, many opponents that play low to mid limits frequently limp with hands much worse than KQ/AT/KJ. On average, your hand will be much better than theirs.

[ QUOTE ]
even worse one of the 4 players left to act could 3bet with a premium hand leaving you only with a flush draw against a few players.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess you never play KK because someone could have AA?

[Bukem_]

It's really not that complicated.

You raise preflop when you have the best of it.
KTs is not having the best of it preflop.
Limping on speculative hands that play well multiway is very reasonable.

[Jimbobobb]

KTs is good for many reasons. It plays great multi way, and even though it may not be a 'premium' holding, it *does* have high card value, especially vs. many of the random holdings people at this limit are prepared to call with. Odds are you have the best hand so far.

Basically by raising here you are building a big pot that you plan on winning when your draws hit. But you are also helping yourself reach that goal and giving yourself a few extra 'outs' by asserting your position and establishing control - this allows you to use free card plays and information to help you continue in the hand. Doing these things early can really make or break a hand.

I see too much weak tight thinking here. Three people limping does not mean you're dominated. It means three people liked their hands. It 'probably' means at least one is playing absolute garbage. Two people plus the blinds to act behind you doesn't mean one holds a monster and is going to re-raise you. If we followed this line of thinking, we'd never play anything but AA.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
It's really not that complicated.

You raise preflop when you have the best of it.
KTs is not having the best of it preflop.
Limping on speculative hands that play well multiway is very reasonable.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to PokerStove (http://www.pokerstove.com) , KTs against 3 limping hands and 2 random hands has almost 30% pot equity. That may not be the "best" of it, but thats a pretty huge edge.

[StellarWind]

The preflop raise is fine:

1. You have an equity edge against preflop limpers. This is a value raise.

2. You may capture the button. The button is worth money.

3. There is a reason why we are discussing KTs and not 52s. They both have the same basic draws, but KTs is a vastly better hand. I love flush draws as much as the next person, but the hard reality of poker is that you are much more likely to be trying to win this hand with a pair of kings or tens. Knocking out opponents when you have high cards is not evil.

One of those "customers" that we knocked out behind us may very well have had a five. How would you feel about that when the turn comes?

The flop raise is good. You have a decent draw that may be the best hand. You should try to protect both your hand and your outs. With K /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif instead I would not expect to have the best hand. I would just call to draw cheaply unless I was pretty certain I could buy a free card by raising.

The check on the turn is a serious error. It is quite likely that you have the best hand. The flop did not get reraised. No one stepped forward to bet their trip fives. Between your hand and your outs you will win this much more than 25% of the time. By putting 1 BB in the pot you force three opponents to either match or fold their draws. You are getting 3-1 odds on this bet.

If someone checkraises you can fold. Little harm has been done by betting because you would have lost the same bet calling the river after you checked. You don't have many outs against their likely hands: trips, set, big jack. Only in the rare case where you manage to make a winning hand on the river would checking have saved you.

Usually you will get a mixture of calls and folds. When you fail to improve on the river they will check to you. Now you probably should worry that someone is hugging a jack. You check behind them and take the free showdown. The bet you spent on the turn comes back because you don't have to pay to call the river. You have broken even on the amount of money you invested in the pot, but you have gained major advantages by putting it in on the turn:

1. Someone may fold a hand like Ax or Qx. This could save the hand for you when an overcard hits the river.

2. A straight draw will pay a bet on the turn to see the river. He will pay nothing on the river when he misses. Unlike you, he doesn't need a showdown for his hand. Betting the turn gets an extra BB in the pot that you might win.

To summarize the key ideas behind this turn decision:

1. You may have the best hand. Protect it from weak draws.

2. You want a showdown even if you don't improve. Buy it now while it comes with extra free merchandise.

3. You can easily fold if you get checkraised because you have virtually no outs in that case.

Contrast this hand with K9. Now you should take the free card:

1. You don't have the best hand. You absolutely don't care about anyone's outs because you are drawing to the nuts.

2. You don't want a showdown. You will fold the river when you miss.

3. A checkraise would be horrible because you have four nut outs. You would have to call.

I've spent a lot of virtual ink on this turn because it is fundamental. This situation comes up all the time. Keep reading this over until you get it. Checking is a huge leak.

[Bukem_]

I don't assume he is dominated in this situation. The real trouble is that when you are you are probably gonna lose alot of money.

I think he played it well postflop, which is ultimately far more important than whether he limped or raised with this hand.

[Greg J]

Excellent post stellarwind!

The preflop raise is fine. The fact is this is a fairly close decision preflop, but I think raising here is a better move. When people limp in with complete crap you want to punish them by exploiting your pot equity edge. Plus you have the possibility of buying better position. Even buying CO is worth something.

And yes, you have to get this turn. Stellar already said it best, so no need to be redundant here.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
KTs has little high card value - it derives its value from the speculative natures of the flush and straight

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really. Any 2 cards above 10 can't really be said to have little high card value. I have a King and a 10, I'm definitely packing some high card power which increases in value the more I narrow the field. Add to this that its suited and you've got a nice value raise pre-f.

[blackaces13]

Thanks for the post Stellar. Makes a lot of sense. I basically assumed I was up against a weak J after being led into on the flop so I though the free card stood to help me more than hurt me. Now I see that the free card could have hurt me and betting the turn likely costs the same as waiting and calling the river.

One question though. What if the flop bettor wakes up again on the river after I bet the turn? Also assume that there is a call in front of me on the river here as well. I have to call in this situation right (or do I fold due to the overcall)? In this instance the turn bet would cost me an extra BB right?

EDIT: Another possiblity is if the player on my right leads the river after I bet turn, could this possibly a raise here because I "don't want overcallers" as it says in SSH?

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
a speculative hand like KTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ajax, I think that this hand is not quite as speculative as you may think. Notice that in the very hand I posted here I won because of pairing my "big" cards, not as a reslut of a flush or freak straight. Incidentally, I was ahead the entire hand though I thought otherwise.

If the hand was 56s then I would certainly agree with you. But the fact is that you make your flush about 4% of the time, that's it. A pair of kings wins a LOT of hands and the more people I can knock out while simulataneously making the pot bigger with what I think to be a much better than "average" limping hand the better my chance is of taking a nice size pot down with a pair. In this hand my pair of T's was actually good enough to drag the pot on the river. Just something to think about.

If I did manage to hit my flush I still don't lose much if anything IMO. Now I've got 4 opponents who are psychologically committed to the hand and facing a pre-f raiser who is betting and raising as he is expected to do (I can usually count on being called down by any piece of the board in these spots). I can make just about as much money against that size field in for a double bet as I can from a few more players (which I can't guarantee are going to limp in ANYWAY) who I let in cheap and will fold fairly easily.

[JustOnce]

As a new player with about 3000 hands under my belt I justed wanted to say this was a very helpful thread on my path toward becoming a better player. The points on the turn play were very instructive. Personally I would just limp with KTs currently as I would feel a bit uncomfortable playing this postflop if I didn't hit a flush draw or a TP. KTs probably becomes more EV+ the better your postflop play is.

[helpmeout]

One of the 4 remaining may not have you dominated nor the 3 limpers in front but there are plenty of times they will have you dominated.

When someone 3 bets after you and shortens the field what are you going to do?

What about when one of the limpers has AK KQ KJ AT JJ TT etc. Or someone in late position limps with one of these hands, you will lose money later when you think your hand is best.

Thats the weakness of KT, plenty of hands beat you badly.

If you had AJo in this position you would raise because a lot less hands can dominate you compared to KT.

[Jimbobobb]

May may and plenty plenty. We're talking EV and averages here. On average, this is a plus EV play for all of the reasons already stated.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
I just have difficulty with the concept that a raise pre-flop here is right. With speculative hands in mid-position it seems that we want more callers - not fewer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it this way. If you want your KTs to play against 6 people, its because you want the added money in the pot. If you have 3 limpers at 1 SB each, then you raise, there's an addition 3 SB for sure. Also, this raise got him the button, which is invaluable. His preflop raise, coenciding with the flop raise, slowed down the Jx so much he got to catch up for free.

Also, just because you raise this preflop, and win the button, doesn't mean you have to bet if checked to. If you have K /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif and raise and the flop comes down A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, there is no law that says you have to bet this flop. Getting the extra money in there when you hit a good flop more than makes up for this 1 SB investment preflop.

Derek

[Jimbobobb]

I also want to clarify that this should probably be a *default* play when you're against unknowns or people who play poorly. There are many situation where I would make this into a limp. For instance if one of the limpers was a rock, limping with things like AJ, KQ, etc etc. Or if people to act behind me were particularly aggressive. Different circumstances call for different plays. But against the avg field of limping horribleness that is party .5/1, raising this here is the correct play.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the 4 remaining may not have you dominated nor the 3 limpers in front but there are plenty of times they will have you dominated.

When someone 3 bets after you and shortens the field what are you going to do?


[/ QUOTE ]

So I shouldn't raise QQ or JJ because someone might have KK or AA?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
One question though. What if the flop bettor wakes up again on the river after I bet the turn? Also assume that there is a call in front of me on the river here as well. I have to call in this situation right (or do I fold due to the overcall)? In this instance the turn bet would cost me an extra BB right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll be honest. This happens sometimes and it is always a problem.

Often I fold when the free showdown play fails in this fashion. A river bet after you bet the turn should show a lot more strength then if you had checked. It's logical to think your hand is unlikely to be good.

Logic doesn't make it true of course. He may be betting the river as a bluff. He may also be betting to prevent a free showdown, in which case he is not bluffing but may have a slightly worse hand than yours.

What to do?

1. Examine the river card. Does it make something? The most obvious explanation for his bet is that he improved.

2. Beware the unlikely scare card. The runner-runner flush comes but you are almost certain he couldn't have the flush. Or the river puts a pair of threes on the board but he is too tight to have a three. These are danger signs that he is using the scare card to support a bluff or prevent you from raising his thin value bet.

3. Examine the player. Is he tricky? Passive? Prone to strange slowplays?

4. How certain were you that this guy had a jack in the first place? The more marginal hands you can beat the more you should be inclined to call.

5. The golden rule is don't be genius on the river. If in doubt, call. If that means he outsmarted you, oh well. It's only 1 BB. Properly used the free showdown play is so profitable that you can accept an occasional backfire. What you cannot accept is losing pots due to bad river folds.

About the caller: he hardly matters. Where was he while we were playing the hand? Just calling. This is microlimits where morons call the river with any two cards. Did you ever worry that the caller had you beat? The fact that he also called the river doesn't change much. Your winning chances are about the same as if he had folded. Especially when you factor in the extra BB he just added to the pot odds.

The overcall rule is very useful in the right situation. It's useful when the caller has shown a good hand and you are seriously worried he might have you beat. It's also useful when you can only beat a bluff. You may catch the bettor bluffing, but how do you plan to beat the caller? There is no such thing as a bluff call.

Except in 0.5/1 where most of your opponents are idiots. You need to be very careful about the overcall rule in such a bad game. Too many people call the river without even a bluff catcher.

[ QUOTE ]
could this possibly a raise here because I "don't want overcallers" as it says in SSH

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't do that because your hand is too good. I don't expect a better hand to fold to a raise. I would just call (save money) and hope that worse hands are induced to overcall me (make money).

The time to try the river raise trick is when you think the bettor is bluffing but your hand is only strong enough to beat a bluff. Now you are afraid that someone may call behind you with a weak hand that just happens to beat you. Your actual hand is probably strong enough to beat all the hands that might fold to a raise.

[Jimbobobb]

I thought This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1077811&amp;page=3&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#1077811) was a really good example of the 'don't want overcalls' rule.