posting spree

[chio]

i am going on a posting spree. UTG is too loose preflop (Any ace, any 2 suited, etc)

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>

am i the man? or ugh?

[NLSoldier]

If you were the man you would have 3 bet the flop or raised the turn.

[samdash]

He's not going to fold a Q, K or ace high. I can't really think of a better hand he would fold besides JT or JJ. Are you going for a value call from a low pocket pair that doesn't realize they're playing the board?

[chio]

[ QUOTE ]
He's not going to fold a Q, K or ace high. I can't really think of a better hand he would fold besides JT or JJ. Are you going for a value call from a low pocket pair that doesn't realize they're playing the board?

[/ QUOTE ]

when that river card came, i was in such disbelief that even someone bluffing with A high beat me now that i wasn't thinking clearly. i guess it felt wrong to fold or call, so i raised, even though i now believe it is bad, for the reasons you stated.

[chio]

raising the turn would have made the hand a lot easier to play. good point.

given the way i played it, would you fold, call or raise the river?

[TJD]

[ QUOTE ]
or raised the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you suggested this in a previous thread by Chio, again with a paired board.

What's the reasoning here? Do you expect UTG is betting an 8 or raising flop and betting turn as a bluff?

Are you folding to a reraise?

trevor

[NLSoldier]

I think he has either an 8 or somthing like AJ that he thinks is ahead.

[chio]

opponent calls river and shows A2 for the bluff turned winner. ugh. i think the better play would be to 3bet the flop, or call the flop and raise the turn, as was suggested.

given the way i played, i should have folded the river i think. it's just that calling and folding both felt wrong, so i blindly clicked raise - you guys ever do that in a similar situation?

[ctv1116]

OK, I am a little clueless, probably missing the obvious. Why would 3 betting the flop or raising the turn make the hand a lot easier to play?

[sthief09]

Poker 101- Lesson 1: Don't bluff into loose players /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


but seriously, he's calling with anything better and he's folding anything worse. I think most of the time you'll actually be ahead here, so I'd just call. He most likely has a pocket pair or 8x where x &lt; 10, so I think it's a pretty easy call.

[sthief09]

how is calling wrong here? his most likely hand here is a pocket pair less than TT or a pair of 8s, with a kicker &lt; T. on the river, he pretty much HAS TO make a desperate bluff attempt, and I'd bet a lot of players are dumb enough to think that 3-pair is good. all he has to do is be betting the worse hand ~12% of the time for calling to be right.

[chio]

[ QUOTE ]
how is calling wrong here? his most likely hand here is a pocket pair less than TT or a pair of 8s, with a kicker &lt; T. on the river, he pretty much HAS TO make a desperate bluff attempt, and I'd bet a lot of players are dumb enough to think that 3-pair is good. all he has to do is be betting the worse hand ~12% of the time for calling to be right.

[/ QUOTE ]

good points. i said calling "felt wrong" as it would be equivalent to calling down with Q-high on a non-double-paired board. but the action and texture of the board makes it not a bad call at all, as you said. and i will be shown A high a lot of the time, but so be it.

[chio]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I am a little clueless, probably missing the obvious. Why would 3 betting the flop or raising the turn make the hand a lot easier to play?

[/ QUOTE ]

well i don't think it's obvious, but i think of a lot of hands he might be bluffing with would fold to a turn raise, like ace high, which has more outs against me than might seem.

i can pretty confidently fold to a 3bet.

and i can check behind on the river if he calls the raise since (1) i still beat any small pocket pair he would call with and (2) he's still calling the river with any ace if he called the turn.

the way i played it, i have no idea what he's betting with, and am in a tough situation on the river:
(1) folding - there are many worse hands i could fold to
(2) calling - there are some bluffing hands that i still lose to, any J, any A
(3) raising - bad for the reasons sam stated, and if i raised the turn and checked behind on the river, i only lose 2 BB to an ace as opposed to 3