NL MVP

[andyfox]

Bonds is, of course, the favorite. If Beltre does something spectcular this weekend, he's the only guy I see with a chance. Here's how I'd vote:

1) Bonds
2) Beltre
3) Pujols
4) Edmonds
5) Rolen
6) Drew
7) Berkman
8) Clemens
9) Lidge
10) Benitez

[ThaSaltCracka]

My vote

1. Bonds
no one else.

[GuyOnTilt]

9) Lidge

Whoa.

GoT

[Uston]

John Kruk must have convinced Andy that Lidge is the man.

[ThaSaltCracka]

^^^^^^
LOL /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[bosoxfan]

If not for Bonds I could see a top three sweep by Cardinals.

[Six_of_One]

Anyone who votes for anyone besides Bonds doesn't deserve to have a vote. There's simply no rational argument that can be made in support of anyone else...the gap between Bonds and the field is too great.

I think Beltre deserves the "except for Bonds" award (I'm biased, since I'm a Dodger fan).

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
If not for Bonds I could see a top three sweep by Cardinals.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm...have you not seen beltre at all this year?

It should really look like this:

Bonds

















Beltre


Puljos
Edmonds
Rolen

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
9) Lidge
10) Benitez

[/ QUOTE ]

really?

[ThaSaltCracka]

I think a case can be made for Benitez more so then Lidge, but Lidge has been very valuable for the Astros down the stretch. I actually think a good case can be made for Benitez winning the Cy Young.

[Uston]

I actually think a good case can be made for Benitez winning the Cy Young.

You can make a case for Benitez, but you can't make a good case for Benitez. He hasn't been that much better than Randy Johnson and he's pitched 170 less innings.

[bugstud]

I would put on Zambrano, Schmidt and Pavano before Lidge and Benitez, despite their superb years. Bullpen guys are bullpen guys, and only Gagne Smoltz and Lidge are dominant enough to where I could even consider them. I feel they aren't pitching enough innings.

As far as this Bonds/Beltre business, Bonds deserves it but if they don't make it there is a damn good chance that Beltre wins it, and it's deserved. He's a clearcut #2.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Gagne won last year and he only pitched 82 Innings.

Note: I am not saying Benitez is the Cy Young, nor do I think he will win, but a good case can be made for him, IMO.

Compare Benitez to Gagne and Smoltz. Benitez has an era 1 point lower than either of them, with roughly the same amount of saves.

I do think though that Gagne and Benitez have been the best closers in the NL.

[Uston]

True, but Gagne did have the best season by a closer in the history of baseball. 55-for-55 in save chances. Best K/9 ever and what has to be the lowest WHIP and OPS-against ever.

[ThaSaltCracka]

yeah he did, he deserved it last year.

[bugstud]

Gagne last year - 137K in 82IP
Lidge this year - 151K in 92 IP

Barely off of Gagne's pace. I understand when a Gagne-type season gets a Cy, but I'm of the opinion that starters are more valuable. You have guys like Lidge and Mike Gonzalez more or less come out of obscurity (relatively speaking) and dominate in bullpen roles.

Bah, Cuck the Fubs and screw sports in general. Damn baseball.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Lidge moved into the closer role after the trade of Dotel. I think he was getting more innings before that transistion, but I may be wrong.

[M2d]

while they've all had great years, I don't think they are as valuable to their team as bonds or beltre. take one out of the lineup and you still have a wicked offensive machine. lose bonds and you have the CWS runner up. Lose Beltre and you have a company softball team.
Maybe griffy should win it. Didn't the reds really go into the tank when he got hurt? that kinda exemplifies his worth, doesn't it?

[M2d]

Matt Herges has been pretty valuable for the Dodgers

[andyfox]

Who would you put in your ten instead? Dunn? Helton?

[andyfox]

Benitez's performance kept his team in the hunt. Johnson's team was eliminated in June or somewhere around then.

[Neil Stevens]

Bonds is a great player, but he hasn't been given the opportunities to be the most valuable.

The award should be about performance, not potential. Sure, if Bonds had the at-bats that Beltre gets, then Bonds would probably (but we can't say for certain at his age) be breaking his own home run records instead of his own walk records.

But, these are the same bonehead writers who gave the AL MVP to last place A-Rod, so Bonds will probably get the award anyway.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Bonds is a great player, but he hasn't been given the opportunities to be the most valuable.

The award should be about performance, not potential. Sure, if Bonds had the at-bats that Beltre gets, then Bonds would probably (but we can't say for certain at his age) be breaking his own home run records instead of his own walk records.

But, these are the same bonehead writers who gave the AL MVP to last place A-Rod, so Bonds will probably get the award anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even without all those "opportunities", check out this:

[ QUOTE ]
One of our sabermetrician friends, Lee Sinins, estimates that a team comprised of all Barry Bondses would have averaged more than 23 runs a game this year. That's the highest figure in history, and it's approximately double what a team of all anyone elses would average.

[/ QUOTE ]
-Jayson Stark, espn.com, here (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1892977)

[nothumb]

That's a good stat. Another one I read is that if you took away all of Bonds' walks, he would basically be Jim Thome, in terms of OPS. There are a lot of guys with an OPS roughly half his own that are huge stars.

Incidentally, why are there like 10 guys in the NL with an OPS over 1.0 and only one inthe entire AL????

NT

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
Bonds is a great player, but he hasn't been given the opportunities to be the most valuable.

The award should be about performance, not potential. Sure, if Bonds had the at-bats that Beltre gets, then Bonds would probably (but we can't say for certain at his age) be breaking his own home run records instead of his own walk records.

But, these are the same bonehead writers who gave the AL MVP to last place A-Rod, so Bonds will probably get the award anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is beyond stupid. Peformance not potential? Bonds has hit 45 homeruns, how many has Beltre hit, a whopping 3 more? And those walks you dismiss are "potential" alright--potential runs to be scored. How is a walk any less a matter of "performance" than a single? In fact, a walk is better than a single (although not as good as an extra-base hit, obviously), because everytime a hitter doesn't walk, he'll make an out some 65-75% of the time, whereas a walk guarantees a man on base without an out. I thought that by now even casual observers of baseball would understand the value of the walk (and by extension, OBP), but apparently not.

As most posters in this thread recognize, Bonds's performance this year has lapped the field.

[Neil Stevens]

That's because the Designated Hitter is for girly men.

[Neil Stevens]

"beyond stupid?"

[M2d]

as a dodger fan, I have to say that it went way past stupid and is about to lap it.

[tolbiny]

In fact, a walk is better than a single

A walk is not better than a single. A walk may be better than your average other at bat, but you cannont assume a walk but then only give him credit for a hit based upone his average.
Also, a hit ahs the advantage of moving runners further over that are on base, and the potential for errors to be occured in the field.

[Neil Stevens]

You don't bleed blue like I do, then.

But seriously, the people who want to give it to Bonds won't even allow for anyone else. It's gone beyond an objective measuring of performance. It's now just hero worship.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
That's because the Designated Hitter is for girly men.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand this. OPS is calculated by adding OBP to slugging, right? Unless you just hate the junior league, which I guess I can understand. Unfortunately my favorite team plays in it, so I was kind of wondering.

NT

[Neil Stevens]

I was just kidding.

I've always figured that what's really going on is that NL teams are willing to pay a higher premium for the top power hitters because they don't have a DH.

Of course, it might just be random.

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, a walk is better than a single

A walk is not better than a single. A walk may be better than your average other at bat, but you cannont assume a walk but then only give him credit for a hit based upone his average.
Also, a hit ahs the advantage of moving runners further over that are on base, and the potential for errors to be occured in the field.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right. What I should have said was, although a walk isn't considered an official at-bat it is more productive than the average at-bat.

[M2d]

Oh, I bleed some serious blue. You have to if you stay a dodger fan in the bay area.

I do think beltre deserves consideration, but there's no doubt in my mind that Bonds' year was head and shoulders above everyone else in the league. even with the fewer at bats, bonds has put up numbers in the same range as the other contenders. add to that his walks and the percentage of his hits that were extrabase hits, and you have a serious offensive weapon.

as far as value to his team, every time the giants are in a close game and the top of the order is up, the giants second best hitter is guaranteed of coming up with at least one man on.

[Neil Stevens]

They've GOTTEN to you, man, can't you see? It must be in the water.

[Uston]

Florida-710 runs scored. Arizona-604 runs scored. This doesn't change the values of Benitez or Johnson (as pitchers) in the least.

[Uston]

Bonds is a great player, but he hasn't been given the opportunities to be the most valuable.

Do you realize that if a guy had 500 PA's and walked 500 times, he would have been the most valuable player in the history baseball, if not all team sports?

[Jim Kuhn]

Something to think about. Assume Barry Bonds has 600 plate appearances and walks 600 times. Albert Pujols bats .300 with 100 home runs. Neither team wins their division. Who is the league MVP and why?

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4U
/images/graemlins/spade.gif /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Uston]

Well, Pujols would win the MVP, but Bonds would have deserved it.

Yes, Pujols' OPS would probably be 500 points higher than Bonds, but that's not enough to compensate for making several hundred more outs.

[DCIAce]

Bonds

Beltre





Pujols
Rolen
etc

I completely bleed Dodger Blue, and I really wanted to put Beltre as 1st on my list.. but Bonds is on an awful team, which is in playoff contention. The Giants have two players, Bonds and Schmidt.. the rest of their team ranges from average to horrible.

Maybe, just maybe, if Beltre hits a game winning grand slam to clinch the division in the last game of the season.. he manages to win the MVP, depending on how much weight leading a team to the playoffs gets.

Better yet, if he hits a GW Grand Slam that bounces off Bonds' head in a Canseco-esqe fashion, to clinch the division. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[andyfox]

He finished 0 for 14, so if a big finish might have pushed him past Bonds, it didn't happen.

I thought Pujols would win the award last year, so what do I know. But my guess is Beltre gets 2 votes for 1st place and finishes second to Bonds.