Postion/Thx Nate

I've read Ciaffone's Big Bet and TJ's No Limit books, but I've found the advice here even more valuable, especially a comment (I think made by Natedogg) about position.


I think he said, words to the effect, that you can play almost any cards in NL for a small bet if you've got position.


We've got a $5-10 "home (same players every week)" NL game, mostly HE & Omaha8. Everyone starts with $100 as we eat dinner and chitchat, the "real game" gets started after an hour or so as stacks range from $300 - several thousand $.


I'm known as a tight player, having played a lot of limit HE and read all the books on starting hands. I've used those starting hands charts we've all memorized, even in the NL game, laying down garbage, and not playing very many hands.


But I'm learning from Nate & others the value of position, and how the object of NL is to win BIG POTS, not just have the best odds of making the best hand.


I'm learning to exploit the tight image by making my standard raise to $40-$50 when in late position and no one else has raised, with almost any two cards. Sometimes my raise wins the pot right there. Sometimes I get 1-2 callers, can make a second bet at the pot if the flop looks helpless, and take it there. But the real payoff can come when I've raised with junk and junk comes.


No one puts me on a junk hand (6-5o, for example), and I won my biggest pot last week to a 7-4-3 rainbow flop, when an A came on the turn to make one of the blinds two pair with the A-7s.


By showing down a few starting rags, I'm also starting to get called a bit more, and my win rate has gone up substantially.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but the concepts I think I'm using are:


1) exploiting a tight image to steal pots;

2) getting good "implied odds" playing junk cards in good position for $10-$50, when several other players also have $1,000+ in their stacks.

3) creating doubt and confusion among the other good players who have me "figured out" to be a "nuts only" type player.


Please let me know if I've misinterpreted what has been said on position, or if you think I'm just running lucky and playing badly.


Thanks again, Nate and others,


GcGang


PS - It's also made the game a lot more fun and exciting. Stealing pots with nothing, having rags hit and beat a big pair starting hand - I look back on my old "nuts only" grind it out self and think, "Man! What a boring guy!"

Well done. You've moved up a level in your NL thinking and play, which is a good thing.


Be a little careful of going too far with it, though. There's a strong negative synergy with using a tight image to steal and get away with playing rags, since it won't take much to lose that tight image.


People will not recall you folding a dozen hands in a row nearly as well as they will remember you raising with bad cards and getting there. It's much easier to get the loose label than the tight label.


Now, I think that many of the best NL players that I have seen are actually somewhat loose, and use position really well. But they do it despite their lack of a tight image. That, I think, requires really first rate hand reading and situational play skills.


Starting tight and getting looser is probably the best road to learning to play NL at a high level. Just be careful as you get looser, to make sure you take enough time to learn the skills that you'll need, so that you don't get crushed when you don't flop the nuts with your bad hand.


- target

the game is about to get very ugly for you if you dont remeber 1 basic thing. you have to make the same play w/ aa as you do w/ 56o. THE EXACT SAME PLAY. Dont raise to 50 w/56o and 45 w/ aa and astute player will pick you apart. this is the main problem i see w/ players at your level. If there is even a single astute player in your game a barage of limp re-raises is in your future.

It looks like your at the "next" level.


However,you need to be very aware of the fact your opponents will at some point adjust to this play. When they do, you may have to

go back to a tighter game plan.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the concepts I think I'm using are:


1) exploiting a tight image to steal pots;




This is very important and is something you actually want to cultivate. The tighter they think you are, the more often you'll steal pots.




2) getting good "implied odds" playing junk cards in good position for $10-$50, when several other players also have $1,000+ in their stacks.




Be careful not to take this too far. You don't get very good implied odds from playing true junk. 72o and J4o and Q5s are junk and at best you have negative implied odds. Any flop that is really good for those hands will mean that if you get any action, you've probably lost. You're better off not looking at the cards in that case.


In fact, try playing a few pots on the button without looking at your cards. The value of playing junk on the button is the button, not the junk. When playing junk on the button, you're only hoping for a steal on the flop. Period.




3) creating doubt and confusion among the other good players who have me "figured out" to be a "nuts only" type player.




This is a very important part of a winning no limit style. You have to keep your opponents guessing. But beware. There is a balancing act between this factor and the first one about stealing pots with a tight image. You must change gears back and forth.


Also, you can't just change gears willy nilly. Slow down when appropriate and speed up when appropriate. With experience, it'll become obvious to you when you can no longer get away with a bluff or when you can totally overbet the pot for value because somebody will look you up.


The end result will ideally be a situation where your opponents simply squirm when they are playing a raised pot in front of you.


They will KNOW that they are going to face a bet on the flop, and that no matter what the flop holds, there's a chance you've hit it very hard. They will KNOW that they will have to commit a substantial amount of chips just to find out if you really did hit that flop. This is probably the most powerful aspect of playing late position properly in no limit hold'em. You can make a fortune off players who make non-pot-sticking raises from the blinds or early position with AQ and the like. They are practically giving you their money.


One last thing. Only "play position" from the cutoff and the button. Don't start fooling around in early position. It's really not worth it. To be able to screw around from early position and bully players or manipulate them into/out of pots takes a level of expertise far beyond anything I understand at my current skill level. I've seen players who can do it effectively and they are a terror.


Good luck. Sounds good so far.


natedogg

limon,


"you have to make the same play w/ aa as you do w/ 56o. THE EXACT SAME PLAY"


Obviously, if you ALWAYS make the exact same plays with your hands, even relatively inattentive opponents will pick up on it, it s just a matter of time. However, you should mix up your play and depending on every situation, I would almost never make the exact same play with the same hand, e.g. always put in a big raise w/ AA . Every once in a while, I would just limp in, or make a small raise, and sometimes I would overbet the pot to feign a steal.


Now, I am still relatively inexperienced at BigBet Holdem, but I have played some PL Omaha. Even though I would be considered a tight preflop player by most of my opponents (mostly because you are almost never a big favourite before the flop), I would still raise or even reraise with a lot of different hands, precisely to keep my opponents of guard. In holdem, I would raise with an even greater number of different hands, hoping to steal a lot but also to add more deception to my play.


Now, I cannot picture a lot of people making utterly predictable plays, playing their hands the exact way each time, especially at "the next level".


If they do, I would certainly like to be invited to their game

;-)


On a different subject, more regarding the original post by gcgang (and by extension, natedogg), would you really recommend raising with almost anything remotely playable if you have position? Do you still recommend raising if you are not the first one in? Playing this way will soon get you into a lot of trouble, with players just calling preflop, checking the flop and reraising you after you bet the flop again.


I tend to try to avoid trap hands like small connectors or AT or the like. The possibility to lose a big pot is just too great.


Unless I had my weak opponents pretty dominated in terms of playing postflop, I would rather throw these hands away, in fear of flopping to them just enough to get me involved. After all, how often do you really flop the nut straight, get played with and have it hold up??


I would really like to see some more of these posts on NL strategy, especially holdem.


Regards, Jan.

making the same play is more confusing than mixing it up. in the cafiaone rueben book stewart relates a story about this.