Slowplaying Idea

[Jason Strasser]

I was rereading Stip's post about having TT in the BB. Here was the situation, edited for simplification.

4 handed. Strip had 2k or so, in the BB (200/400), with the third largest stack. SB had him covered with slightly less than 3k. Chip leader had folded UTG (who had slightly less than 4k), and so had small stack with 800 on the button.

In this hand, the SB chose to limp in with KK.

Now, in the past, I would say: "raise it up". But I have been thinking a little bit about the 200 game today, and just the general trends in SNGs.

It's flat out obvious that they have gotten more aggressive and more aggressive. I once posted about a very respected player, who EVERY TIME would push all in with < 10xbb (or so) whenever someone limped.

Anyhow, I want to try to argue that the SB in this hand played it perfectly, especially against a player like me. I tend to treat people who limp in the SB as the type of crappy player who likes to auto-bet at the flop and pick up a small pot. I also tend to have very little respect for this limp, because in general people will almost always tend to do this with too many hands.

In the BB, I will tend to push with a LOT of hands here... Probably too many. I would say AA-66, AK-A9, KQ-KJ, QJ. Some range in that type of area. But why do I push so much? It's a combination of the small stacks, but ALSO a factor of the bubble situation. Look at the button who folded with 800. A player like me will see that and look for even more reasons to force "safe" stacks (safe to make the money--usually) to commit large portions of their stack. People are usually the most tight at this point in the game.

Anyhow, I really can't see what is wrong with limping in PF and auto-betting the flop if not raised. If raised, obviously shove. Sure, a FEW hands like maybe A5o (even that is a borderline push for me in spots like this) or 86o may outflop you, and force you to lose a few costly hands, but I think in today's environement the times you will:

1) get all in preflop... Let's face it, you'll get more all-in confrontations here by limping in pf

2) get paid off by top pair hands you beat

Makes this play good.

What do you all think? I'm thinking limping here should be my standard line.

-Jason

[Michael Davis]

This kind of crap always drives me nuts and because I'm multitabling, works on me every time, and I'm moving here with way worse stuff than you because you have huge folding equity.

Against players who you know are aggressive but aren't aware that you will use this trick, I think it's a great play.

[stripsqueez]

i think just completing in this sort of spot is fine - i have stronger standards for pushing than you as the BB when the SB completes - but it varies depending on how often they limp and if i get to see what they limped with previously - 1010 seemed a tad borderline given the total position which is why i posted the hand - i reckon pairs are grossly overplayed in spots like this

i dont think there is a lot of right and wrong about what you should do with KK in the SB heads up - i try and do the thing that is most likely to get all the other guys chips in - that depends a lot on what has happened in the last 4-5 orbits and whether i think this opponent has a clue - unfortunately i virtually never just complete so an observant opponent should know to be scared

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[The once and future king]

The limp in the sb is a move I try to pull against someone I respect as a solid player.

Solid players often reraise all in from the BB to a limp in the SB with 10BB< (As do I) and or at least reraise x3 BB.

I like to set it up also if I gave a big enough stack. Limp in the SB at perhaps the 50/100 level hope for a reraise and fold.

This puts you in a nice position for limping with power later when the blinds are higher you are perhaps 4/5 handed and want to get action not just steal a blind.

With strong aggresive players you have to adapt and try and turn there strenghts into weakneses.

I have also seen this move used against me with increasing frequancy. I used to consider an reraise of at least x3BB to a limp in the SB almost obligatory. As a result player notes have become an important weapon in avoiding this phenomenon.

[whiskeytown]

I used this trick earlier today...

4 handed - 100/200 ante 25 - the short stack has been surviving FOREVER - in part by going all in usually with 3.5 times the BB - but almost never calling a raiser....

it's frustrating for me cause I'm to his right, and I can't do anything but muck or raise b4 him...and if I raise, he folds and waits for when I don't.

I get the AK offsuit in the button - I look and he's got 3.5 times the BB - I think a raise would probably get a muck out of him. - but I think a limp would inspire him to try to raise and steal blinds and pick up $550 in blinds/antes -

sure as hell, he goes all in...I call - he's got 33 (a hand he might actually have called the raise with anyways, he says) but I snap him off with the A on the flop.

a slowplay, esp. when near the money or short on chips, is a great tactic - but I don't like it early on or with a long ways to go - mostly it's a bit of gambling - and in this case, me and that short stack were going to be the 3rd and 4th place finishers....it was just a matter of who.

If you need/want to gamble, it's a great way to double up...but a lot of guys would just rather raise with AA and steal antes, cause occasionally, it WILL lose...and you'll kick yourself for a week if you didn't and let 34 offsuit come in for 3 percent of his stack to snap you off. -

RB

[Stoneii]

[ QUOTE ]
If you need/want to gamble, it's a great way to double up...but a lot of guys would just rather raise with AA and steal antes, cause occasionally, it WILL lose...and you'll kick yourself for a week if you didn't and let 34 offsuit come in for 3 percent of his stack to snap you off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Whiskey, I don't think they were advocating it if/when you think your opponent will just call, rather that you're up against a very aggressive player who will nigh on always raise a SB limper giving you the chance to raise anyway collecting a better payoff.

stoneii

[AJo Go All In]

"I would say AA-66, AK-A9, KQ-KJ, QJ."


is this really a lot of hands? i push here with anything. you really check Ax, 44 in the BB here? that's nuts.

yeah, of course you limp with KK, that's a no-brainer, the question is if you should limp with something like TT. probably yes as well.

[ilya]

There was a thread started by rybones a couple of days ago about calling a short stack's all-in with AJo after limping. This thread made me think of that one because I was into the idea of limping to entice the short stack into pushing.
I like completing in the SB with a monster against an aggressive BB player. Actually, depending on how agressive that player is, I might well make that play with a hand like AJo or 99, hoping that he'll push.

[rachelwxm]

Jason,
It works like a charm for me, now the word is out…

I learn tremendously from your post to be an aggressor, but if I have a monster hand, I like others to take the driver’s seat. Yes, 5% of time they get lucky to catch some two pairs and straight, but 95% of time you get their last chip.

Good weapon to add to your inventory.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[whiskeytown]

correct...might have misspoke that...

In other words....great for getting a lot of chips...but you need to make sure you'll get a raise/reraise out of the bargain - or an opponent who doesn't mind sizable bets post flop with middle pair... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess basically, you're increasing risk of being busted (in a chance they'll just call with little cards and hit) vs. putting yourself in a position to double up and survive, or just guarantee a higher place in the money.

RB

[Jason Strasser]

AJo,

I didnt know you lurked here anymore. Nice you see you here.

My range of hands is bigger than most 2+2ers here. I do see your argument for having a wider range... Maybe it should be a little bigger. I suppose against the right SB it could be every hand.

Anyhow, I'm surprised no one has presented a real good argument against limping in with KK. I mean--the blinds are very high, is this really the time to mess around? And with TT, I would never think of limping in, can you explain why you think limping is a better standard play than pushing here?

-Jason

[PrayingMantis]

Jason,

[ QUOTE ]
Anyhow, I'm surprised no one has presented a real good argument against limping in with KK. I mean--the blinds are very high, is this really the time to mess around?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a very aggressive opponent on the BB, limping with KK, as with other premiun hands, looks like a standard move. You're not messing around - you have the 2nd best hand in poker, and you will do all it takes to get more action. if your opponent checks, it could get a little more tricky, but so what? you're still a huge favorite while going to see the flop.

There are 2 interesting questions with regard to this: 1) as AJ said, what is the cut-off for such a move? TT? 99? 88? AJ? it depends on the aggressiveness of your opponent, of course, and on other elements, that are relevant also to the next question: 2) how loose and aggressive have _you_ been up until that point? If you have been VERY lag, and you know BB could be tired of you and might call or RR with a wide range of hands (PLUS, if you limp, he might suspect a slow-play, and be too carreful), then raising with KK could get closer.

You write in your OP that the games are getting more and more aggressive. When that's the case, a strong player better find other means to exploit others' behaviour, rather than simply being aggressive too. Trapping more, slow-playing more, calling more. Here is a great spot to exploit others' aggressiveness by using it against them.