thank you high stakes posters!! (long)

because of this page i won $643 in my first no limit session (2 hours). the things ive read here are the only thing ive read about playing no limit so far and that was enough for me to have some sense of how the game was played and how it greatly differed from limit hold em. im sure i made many mistakes, but i know i did some things right as well. ill post a couple of hands i played below:


blinds are $3-$5 and stack sizes range from $200-$2000. just one guy has $2000. the next highest is around $700. average stack size is around $300-350. i bought in for $300.


my first hand: i had 88 on the button. 4 people limp in, i limp, sb calls. bb (guy with $2000) makes it $50 more to go. everyone folds to me and i decide to call because i have position, i figure there's a good chance he could have AK or AQ, and i can decide to drop on the flop if i dont like what happens then. sb folds. the flop is J86. he puts me all in right away and i win. he shows TT.


2. i have 34o in the BB. 5 players limp in, sb calls, and i check. the flop is J65. sb checks, i bet $20, next guy raises to $40 (he has $500 or so and he has recently shown a couple of bluffs). everyone else folds to me and i call. the turn is a 7. i check, he bets $75, i raise $75 more and he calls. the river is a T. i bet $150 and he calls immediately. i win, he doesnt show his hand.


3. i have T8s in the cutoff. 3 players limp in. i limp. button limps in, sb calls, bb makes it $40 more. everyone folds to me, i decide to call, button folds and sb folds. the flop is KT5. the bb immediately goes all in $150. i think to myself "gee that's an awfully strange way to play AK" and i call for time. i look down but when i glance up he is looking away, but uncomfortably. i decide to call him down since i know he cant do anymore damage even if he has me beat. i call and the turn and river are blanks. he shows us AJs and i take down the pot.


4. i have K8o in the sb. utg live straddles for $10 (which is quite common in this game). 3 people limp in, i call, bb calls. UTG just checks. the flop is J84 two spades. i check, bb makes it $25 (guy with $2K again who plays a lot of hands and has shown a couple BIG bluffs), everyone folds to me, this sure looks like a spade draw to me, i decide to call. the turn is a non-spade K. here is where i screw up. i check, for some reason i become worried that he may have KJ. he bets $125 and i just call. yikes! what would the best play have been here on the turn? what size bet? then a spade comes on the river and i check and he bets $125 and i pay him off. he has Q7s. i really lost it on this hand...


5. i have AQs in the BB. 6 players limp to me (including the SB) and i raise it $50 more. they all fold. is this the right way to play this hand? i did a similar thing with AKo on the button, several limpers and then i just blew them all out by raising it $75. any comments? i was sort of afraid to play those hands any differently and i didnt mind making the small ($30 or so) profit.


6. i didnt play this hand, but i wanted to relay it and get your thoughts: a tight player limps on the button after a few limpers, the sb and bb call. the flop is 864 (86 are clubs). the

sb (guy with $2k again) checks, the BB who is loose and has shown a couple wild bluffs bets $125, the button calls, now the sb calls and makes it $400 more to go. then he gets up and goes to the restroom (!?). the table laughs and makes a few uneasy comments about taking a peak at his cards. the dealer tells the floorman to put sb on the clock, sb returns promptly with a smile on his face. in the meanwhile the button has shown me and a couple other players on our end of the table that he holds AA (with the A of clubs). the bb finally folds and the button thinks for about a minute at which time he asks the SB to show him one of his cards and maybe he'll call. the sb says, "ill show you both of my cards if you fold". then he says in a really sincere voice "fold danny (or whatever the guys name was), ive got you." the button takes a few more seconds and folds and the sb show T9o with the T of clubs. i think the button played this hand so poorly, what do you think?

mainly cause playing K8 is bad because it is dominated by many other K hands (like the KJ i feared. it's a trap hand.


other reasons:


--i have to pay $7 more.


--the straddler is likely to make it more to play.


--im in the very worst position.


were you thinking of something else?

mike

very good mike. i would not like to have you in my game if you are this fast a student.

Congrats on your first N/L win. That being said, I find it

rather amazing you were this successful. I have never heard

of a N/L with this much limping BTF in my life.


1. With 88, your choices are to see the flop for $5 and hope


for a set, or get heads up. As things turned out,the BB


did this for you by raising. Your logic for calling is a


little odd, your either a big dog or a small favorite.


If you wanted the dead money, why not raise with 88 in the


first place? A trap for you to think about. What do you do


if the flop is 7 6 2 and he bets?


2. I try NOT to bet open-end draws into a large field. Especially when you are out of position. When you call the raise on the flop, you have to decide what to do if you


miss. Remember, you are always taking the worst of it with


a draw.


3. You got very lucky here. Although you did a good job reading


your opponents body language,which led to a correct call.


4. I think you should have folded BTF. That being said, put


more money in on the turn. I would have check-raised here (about $400). In N/L, you can raise a lot more money and it has a greater impact on others than in a limit game. My other


choice would have been bet about 2/3 the pot.


5. Yes, this is a common move. The idea is to pick up the


extra dead money in the pot. However, you are taking a risk


by doing this. If you get re-raised, it is almost certain


you are beat. Also, you would prefer to make this play


in position, not in the blinds. You must be ESPECIALLY careful if the first limper jacks it up after your raise.


6. Totally silly play by the button. First, he was in a perfect


position to raise to win the dead money BTF (about $50 would have been good). Then, he CALLS a flop bet when an all-in move MIGHT have got called by a worse hand. If you see this guy,and he even BREATHES on the pot, fold ASAP unless you


have the nuts.

when i glance up he is looking away, but uncomfortably.


Remember this guy and how he acted. Other players will stare at you in the same situation, but look away when they're strong. I think what was important here was the "uncomfortably." Good read.

1. Your stack size is not big enough to make this call. the odds of flopping a set are about 7.5:1 and your maximum implied odds are 4:1. you get 5:1 with the money in the pot. If you think the blind is making a move with a big ace then you should re-raise. with 88 you are hoping that he folds.


2. I'm not sure what the purpose of betting $20 was. much of the equity from semi-bluffing comes from making everyone fold. rightly or wrongly you decided to make a bluff here. fine. bet an amount that will make people fold. On the turn notice that you don't exactly have the nuts. but you are probably ahead. with 225$ already in the pot you can raise alot more than $75 and still get called. In fact, if you think you are ahead I would set the other guy all in.


3. 10-8s is an another implied odds hand. even though you are on the button you are playing against the short stack. this means you have very little in the way of implied odds and your positional advantage has gone way down as he will very likely go all in. In this situation I prefer to play pairs or hands with reverse implied odds, i.e. big unsuited cards .


4. nothing to add


5. good play. beware of early position limpers. some players will always limp with KK and AA in early position. Also watch out for short stacks who might very well call or re-raise all in. but even if they do you don't really mind.

OK, I've never played a real NL game, but I have a few thoughts -


1) Your hand with 88 is marginal. you are heads up, and do you have a plan to fold if you do not make a set or an open ended straight draw? If so, you can't play because you are not quite getting your odds. If not, you are probably a money loser on this hand, as you certainly have no leverage. His raise is just large enough to deny a small pair with a $350 stack odds to draw to a set - this may not be by accident.


3) This hand stinks heads up here. OK, he bluffed with 10 outs. You are a small favorite. Things came perfectly for you, but I don't think you should play it here. Why is that strange for AK - he goes in on the flop with bluffs, he should do it here, too.


4) K8? $10 was too much, and you know the BB raises a lot. toss it in the muck.


5) I think you should be thrilled to get all this money with these hands. You take a risk by raising here, if the other player have noticed the BB's behavior and have started trapping with big pairs and AK. But you can always fold if someone moves in on you. BTW, these players seem to fold to a raise a lot, so you might loosen up some if you get a good read. Do this more with an ace in your hand to reduce the chances someone is trapping with aces. If you can outplay them a lot post - flop (no reason to think so, given that you are new), then knocking out everyone has less merit (see my post on middle stakes forum for more discussion).


6) I think it is embarrassing that these ploys are part of some poker games. I am not sure what the correct strategy for the button is, but why he is limping with aces after several caller when the money is not super deep I am not sure - is he hoping for set over set. It seems like he let the bully in the pot for free, and then lets the bully make him fold. He shows weakness, then folds when a seemingly very aggressive player bets. This seems like a losing strategy.


Good luck. Glad it went well.


Dan Z.

Congratulations on winning your first no limit session. I don't believe I ever posted a win playing no limit for at least ten sessions.


From reading just these few hands, it's hard to know for sure how you play, but here's some impressions.


Position is far more important than you think. Playing draws from out of position is very difficult in all cases except where you make the draw. Good position is so important that you can take a flop sometimes regardless of what cards you hold. Being out of position is so bad that you should literally be willing to fold AK in the blinds if the action calls for it. Early position is so tough to play that with a hand like QQ, I want it all-in before the flop (depending on the action and stack-sizes of course). I would rather have 75o on the button than have AK in the blinds. (I got that one from Tommy A, and it's absolutely true).


If you go back and review your experience throughout the session, I'm sure you'll notice that certain hands were much more difficult to play because you acted first, and other hands were a hell of a lot easier to play because you acted last. Just look at what happened with hand #4. Check call, check call, check call. You played this way because of your position. If you had position, you probably would have won the pot on the flop or turn.


Take hand #5. Your raise is fine. But you didn't need AQ to do it. You could do it with any hand, because if you get called you are going to play the flop exactly the same no matter what. Your preflop raise was essentially a steal. You either hit the flop VERY hard or you are going to fold. Because of your awful position, you have very little chance of winning this pot after getting called pre-flop. Stack sizes can also affect whether or not this is a valid play. If you all have $2000 in front of you, don't expect to steal the pot from the small blind with a $50 raise.


The limit hold'em mindset is much more focused on the cards pre-flop, especially with hands like AK and AQ. Some of your plays seem to belie this mentality. In limit, iff you have AQ preflop, you're going to see the flop no matter what your position except in rare circumstances. This is because after the flop, you'll often have odds to take one off with just overcards, or you'll put your opponent on a draw and he can't make it too expensive for you to call him down. In no limit hold'em, when you are out of position you literally have to hit the flop or fold, ESPECIALLY with a hand like AQ if there's been some action pre-flop. You can make a ballsy move sometimes if you put your opponent on nothing, but normally you can't deal with a lot of heat when you whiff on the flop with a big ace from early position. So you don't want to put in much money pre-flop from out of position with AK. You certainly don't want to put in so much that it pains you to fold if you miss. If you want to put in that much pre-flop, just go all-in and pray.


That said, the cards ARE crucial in no limit, probably even more so than in limit. Especially kickers. Kickers are the bane of limit players who try their hand at no limit. In limit hold'em, if you flop a Q with KQ, you are going to show the hand down most of the time. In no limit, you have to be extremely concerned if you get any kind of action with that hand. In fact, you have to be so concerned that technically it should be very easy to push you off your hand, depending on stack sizes and who is trying to push you off of course.


Also, drawing to the non-nut straight or non-nut flush is DEATH in no limit hold'em. I think your worst played hand was the straight draw. You set yourself up to lose your stack, and you committed a lot of chips from out of position with a crappy draw. Overall, this hand illustrates many of the things not to do in no limit. In general, you should never, ever, ever draw to the idiot end of a straight. That means that if you get your hand, there's a sequence of three cards on the board. Any fool can see there's a straight possibility out there, so if you get a lot of action with your baby straight, you've probably lost.


That said, your best hand was the T8 vs. the AJ (not counting the preflop move, which was a mistake for stack-size reasons that others have mentioned) because you acted on a read. Playing the PLAYER is the most important part of no limit hold'em and you did it perfectly. You acted on your read and that took guts. You have to be able to call down big bets with second pair and stuff like that. Very nicely done.


Did you notice how often I mentioned stack sizes? /images/smile.gif


natedogg

many thanks to all of you and esp. natedogg for replying on request. i have learned a lot from the things you all have said.


im ordering the ciaffone book (and the cloutier one too i guess?). anything else i need?

he he. limon, believe it or not, despite your pugnacious SmoothB-like attitude in your posts, I have always believed you were a knowledgable player who could contribute a lot to this forum (if you weren't so busy insulting americans and beating your chest).


I'm starting to wonder, though, maybe I was wrong.


Are you really unable to tell the difference between the two AA scenarios? (limping on the button after several limpers, or making a baby raise on the button against one short stack with a player between you and the short stack). Those scenarios are night and day if you ask me, one being an egregious no limit mistake and the other being a sophisticated play, but maybe I'm wrong here. At least I accept that possiblity. I notice you often have a problem accepting the possibility you are wrong, which is often a sign that your game needs some fixing.


You seem to think that failing to bet the max with AA is always a mistake, regardless of the circumstances. Hmmmmm. What if there are 7 players with 4k each in front of them and one player opens for $50. You are on the button with AA and you know that both blinds are aggressive, tricky players who like to steal pre-flop and can't stop themselves from attacking weakness. Do you move all-in right here? Personally, I would not. You might disagree but I haven't heard you explain why.


Yes, I know, all americans are gutless limit poker playing idiots who wouldn't stand a chance if they played in a game with you and other europeans. Now that we've got that behind us, maybe you can explain what your thinking is instead of just picking fights and bragging about your skills.


I mean really, what are you so pissed off about?


natedogg

whats the best that can happen if you call the $50. one of the blinds tries to steal and if your lucky utg has a real hand and goes over the top of him. in essence your just hopin to get lucky. in reality your a sucker like the guy in #6. youll probably end up in a multi way pot w/AA after the flop, no fun.


If you make it $150 to go you still might get called by a stupid blind who wrongly beleives they are gettin 25-1 on their call and will bust you w/ aces. you also create a situation where utg can re-raise you instead of just hopin for one. Big hands are for big pots you cant hope for one you gotta make it. AA is a big hand before the flop you gotta get the money in while the gettins good. and if you win a small pot be happy, youll win your big pots off idiots who like to be tricky with their aces.

I totally agree. You might note that I never said limping was a good idea here. All I said was I wouldn't go all-in at this point. I think limping on the button with aces is a terrible terrible play, and the more limpers the worse it is.


My point with the example was not that you shouldn't raise, but that there's times when it's correct not to raise big time, as you agreed.


It's kinda funny limon, what you are saying here applies directly to target's $6 raise in the hand below.


I agree that some of the biggest pots you'll ever win are against fools who slowplay aces pre-flop. I saw this hand go down in vegas:


I have T8, blinds are 1-2, stacks are around 500.


One limper, I limp, button limps. Flop comes J8Q all diamonds.


Limper checks, I bet $10, button raises $50 more, limper goes all-in for about $500.


I fold, button calls. Limper shows, AA with no diamond, button shows a flopped straight. Duh. I don't know if I've seen a better example of how NOT to play AA.


natedogg

I agree with the two of you about not getting too cute with aces. It seems like many players limp in early position with them and then get 5 handed on the flop and are screwed. I guess they get screwed, though, by not being able to lay them down if the board is scary. I like making baby raises with AA when agressive players are left to act- then if they pop me back I hit back hard, making my play, I suppose, a bit obvious, but with AA it is better to get the majority of the betting in when you are sure you have the best hand, and that is before the flop. What players have to understand is that AA is just another hand, and should be played as such after limping/misplaying it and getting a bad flop. It shouldn't be that hard to fold, but, like Limon said, the players who can't let it go are the ones whose stacks you take, and I welcome them in my game.