Flop Nut Flush...best play thoughout?

[RED_RAIN]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Bet hoping to get raised by PFRer

Turn: (8.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Bet to try to trap people inbetween

River: (10.16 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Normal

Final Pot: 12.16 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.16 BB, between Hero and UTG+1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (12.16 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero has Ad 9d (flush, ace high).
UTG+1 has 7d 7h (flush, king high).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.16 BB. </font>

[bicyclekick]

hero 3 bets the flop because he want to win a gigantic pot not just a medium sized one.

[StellarWind]

.

[emil3000]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (8.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, Button folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero has 8h Ah (flush, ace high).
UTG+1 has Qc Qh (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.50 BB. </font>

Is the overcall correct, or better to raise? Can you gain something by checking the turn? I don't think so. Generally I feel that you usually gain little to nothing by slowplaying in limit poker. Occasionally you even lose bets.

BTW, note the funny play of qq.

[jluker7]

You missed some bets, Raise the flop. People with a lone diamond are going to follow behind you.

People generally slow down on these types turn anyways, they fear people are slowplaying them.

I find if you raise the flop, people just want to see if you floped the flush, and they call you down.. Crazy Gooses.

[Rico Suave]

Red Rain:

I like the stop and go in this spot considering your relative position to the flop raiser. While 3-betting the flop is okay, I think you will likely fold the 2 players trapped in the middle.

Sucks that the 4th /images/graemlins/diamond.gif fell on the turn.

--Rico

[tadams]

I like to check the turn to give CO a chance to bet again and then I just call his bet hoping the two players between us call too. The reason I play it this way is because if you come out betting, the players between you and CO may fold fearing a re-raise or they may fear you have the A of diamonds. However, if you play it weakly and check and then just call if CO bets, they may call 1 bet without the chance of a re-raise with any diamond hoping you and CO don't have one or maybe you have a smaller one. Then I come out betting on the river. You may even get a smaller diamond to raise you.

[jluker7]

You risk loosing bets, checking. This is 3/6 people are going to call down. Bet.

[tadams]

I think with 5 players in I would raise the flop here. Depending on the players and my current table image, I will either come out betting or check and call or check and raise the flop. The goal is to try and trap as many players as possible for 2 bets, while not making anyone have to face 2 bets cold.

The problem with this flop is it is unlikely to have really helped anyone and players may get away from their hands easily. This is a good hand to slow-play. Someone with 2 pair or trips will likely bet and you can check-raise them on the turn. Everyone else may be drawing dead or nearly dead so let them take a card off cheaply.

[tadams]

Maybe you're right. In my experience, if I bet the flop, someone raises me and then I come out betting, either they don't believe me and call me down or they beleive me and everyone folds. In my case, everyone usually folds and I don't get any more bets so I usually try to "convince" them I don't have it by checking and that way I usually win at least a bet or two.

It depends on the game though. If people are just calling everything I would definitely bet.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
You risk loosing bets, checking. This is 3/6 people are going to call down. Bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree with this. Thus why I didn't check.

[RED_RAIN]

Aren't you contradicting yourself saying you don't want to face the field with calling 2 cold but yet you raise the flop?

On that hand I would have played it the same as the hand poster.

[RED_RAIN]

You are right on target with my thinking.

I PM'ed Ed Miller to try to help out since it seems there is disagreement on best course of action on flop.

[bernie]

If these players, in prior hands, would likely go too far with their hands, i'd 3 bet the flop. One reason is that there are many hands i'd 3 bet this flop with. However, if you think theyll fold, i might just smooth it in.

Bad turn card though. That was the action killer for the hand. Take what you can get after that hits.

b

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
In my case, everyone usually folds and I don't get any more bets so I usually try to "convince" them I don't have it by checking and that way I usually win at least a bet or two.


[/ QUOTE ]

You may not be betting enough hands in certain spots. Meaning, you may be too tight in what you bet with in those situations.

Bet this turn.

b

[spamuell]

I'd play it the same way, I think this is one of the best times to employ the stop and go.

[J.R.]

I like the stop and go in this spot considering your relative position to the flop raiser... I think you will likely fold the 2 players trapped in the middle.

The downside is one sb on the flop when this happens, and its possible they both won't always fold* and if just one calls and the pfr doesn't cap, you are 1 sb ahead, if they both call and/or the pfr may caps (or one of the callers pulls the awesome call-cap), that's some real good stuff. So there is small downside and huge upside potential (I like gambling in this type of spot). You don't have to find somebody else with a hand very often for 3-betting to be correct.

Most would would expect you to slowplay, so the 3-bet may earn you action later on if your opponents misread your hand. A bet into a field followed by a call of the LP raise screams big flush card, so you kill your action when you lead the turn on the 4th flush card.

There are reasons why bicyclekick now plays the 15 instead of the 3-6 party games, and its not because of his super powdery avatar.


*The thinking that your typical party opponents will fold in a huge pot for 2 but call for one is a divergent with the forum's general consesus concerning making thin value bets when in doubt because of the loose calling standards of most typical partyers. Sure this isn't the same situation but the general principle that your opponents make bad calls is true across the board, although this tendancy is more or less exagerated based on the situation.

Give them a chance to make a bigger mistake. Partyers love to make loose flop calls, cause they have TWO streets to catch and its a CHEAP street, and they hate to fold when they have already put THEIR money into the pot (fish don't rationalize that its no longer their money when it gets into the pot).

[Rico Suave]

JR:

[ QUOTE ]
*The thinking that your typical party opponents will fold in a huge pot for 2 but call for one is a divergent with the forum's consesus advice about generally making thin value bets when in doubt because of the loose calling standards of most typical partyers. Sure this isn't the same situation but the general principle that your opponents make bad calls is true across the board, although this tendancy is more or less exagerated based on the situation. Give them a chance to make a bigger mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in general I see your point. But this is a monotone flop. Overcards, a pocket pair, and other thin draws are FAR less likely to make typical horrible "party" call with that scary of a flop, at least in my experience.

[ QUOTE ]
Most would would expect you to slowplay, so the 3-bet may earn you action later on if your opponents misread your hand

[/ QUOTE ]

While partiers are horrible enough to make terrible cold calls on a scary monotone flop, they are thoughtful enough to deduce that you do not have a flush b/c you wouldn't play it fast? Do you see the contradiction?

Look, I do not think 3-betting is bad, and I can certainly see the upside. (In fact, if you say it is superior, then no doubt I am wrong). I just thought that this is a fine spot for the stop and go. If you put the flop as 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, then I think the 3 bet clearly becomse more correct. On the actual board, I would prefer to take my chance and collect the extra sb from each, in hopes of trapping on the turn. I hope my thoughts in this hand are holding me back from being able to play the 15 game.

--Rico

[J.R.]

While partiers are horrible enough to make terrible cold calls on a scary monotone flop, they are thoughtful enough to deduce that you do not have a flush b/c you wouldn't play it fast? Do you see the contradiction?

I am talking about your ability to get in multiple bets on the BB streets. This stop n go pattern isn't getting raised. The point is many expect the nuts to slowplay on the flop (so the 3-bet may offer some deception), but when you stop n go the turn on the 4th flush card, you aren't going to induce somebody to misread your hand, while when you 3-bet the flop, they may misread it and give too much action later on.

Overcards, a pocket pair, and other thin draws are FAR less likely to make typical horrible "party" call with that scary of a flop, at least in my experience.

Of course not, and I tried to acknowledge so with me "more or less comment". But my point is this is a common situation on this forum- Multiway pot, raised preflop from LP. 2+2er leads the flop with a strong hand from an EP position, gets raised and won't 3-bet because the 2+2er is scared of losing customers. You only have to find someone with a hand every so often for the 3-bet to be plus EV, yet 2+2ers are scared of "losing bets", even though they make more in the long run 3-betting even though they may get played with less than half the time (and fail to consider that they haven't set themselves up for a great turn play, especially if an action killing card comes of on the turn).

I hope my thoughts in this hand are holding me back from being able to play the 15 game.

I didn't mean this to be a reply to you in particular, you just made the nice succint statement that captured what I thought was the majority opinion on this issue. You are one of the better posters here. The 15 comment has some relevance (although it was priamily intended to be a lightening rod) because, IMO, you have to be more willing to push and cultivate a aggressive image, as well as give opponents the chance to make big mistakes as you move up. I am sure you will make it to the 15 (if you arent there already and its a goal of yours) if you stay with poker and don't have any big outside bankroll drains.

I just thought that this is a fine spot for the stop and go.

Sure, but we all post to try to get better, but as we improve the spots in which we can ontinue to "get better" become more subtle. And I am becoming a contrarian as there are so many pots to wade through and I am bit overwhelemed, but I'm not trying to be a preachy pedant. Its my perception that most people think that they won't get somebody to go off with them most of the time in this spot, so they just call, failing to recognize the upside/downside and realize that they only lose one sb when the mp players fold but make mad sbs when it works out well.

[Rico Suave]

JR:

As usual, I appreciate your comments. You are welcome to be the contrarian anytime.

--Rico