I flop 2 pair but hate my hand

[Barry]

20/40 at the Borg' it had been a really bad game, but was starting to pick up a bit.

I'm 3 off the button with K /images/graemlins/club.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif

2 limpers to me, I raise, folded to the SB (tight, decent player) who makes it 3 bets, we all call.

Flop is A /images/graemlins/heart.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets, 1 caller, action is to me.

What should my plan be?

[Smasharoo]

What should my plan be?

Check fold?

AK, AJ, KK, JJ, AA, all of which are possible here all crush you. You have zero outs barring running Ks or Js, which likely don't exist.

You can fill up and still loose.

You're only in for 1.5 BB so far, I don't see the +EV to staying around and quite likely making a second best hand.

That's just me, though.

[NLSoldier]

smasharoo, did you take that rolf slotboom quiz taht was posted in the HUSH forum. I am very confident that you would ACE it!

[Smasharoo]

/Shrug. If it's weak tight to fold KJ here I guess I'm weak tight then.

Clearly you should raise here, I mean, it's TWO PAIR! The mistake was not capping preflop.

[anatta]

Calling down is an easy way to play this, you put in 2.5 big bets, see a showdown in a pot that would be about 14BB at the end. If a bad card comes and the MP raises, you can get out cheaply. You do get to draw cheaply to your backdoor str8!

Another option is to throw in a raise and see where you stand and fold it if you face further aggression.

If you raise the flop, and he three-bets you, I think putting him on a set or top two would be reasonable. I guess he could three-bet you with AQ.

If you wait for the turn, now you are putting in your 2.5 anyways, he folds QQ, and repops you most times otherwise, then you fold?!? (You know, you flop 2 pair but I hate your hand!) This does make MP pay if drawing. Your prolly not gonna get MP to fold AQ or QQ (pair-n-gutter), but he pays too, but how likely is he gonna have this? I kinda like this if I trust myself to fold a big pot if three-bet, which is to say I couldn't do it.

Or you could make a big laydown on the flop. I won't do it getting 17:1, even though drawing dead or nearly so a lot. I'd just hate for him to have QQ, AQ, TT or something just wacky.

I probably just call down.

[Smasharoo]

This is actually a bold decision, one that I couldn't make getting 17:1 even though drawing dead a lot.


Huh? 17:1? Calling down will cost you 2.5 BB, there's 6 in there now, if EVERYONE calls all the way, including the op you end up with 16BB TOTAL in the pot for 2.5 more BB. That's more like ~7 to 1, and it's not likely everyone's calling down.

[Michael Davis]

How about, make sure one bet goes in on every street?

I don't think going through any of the processes to extract MP from this hand are worth it given that you might be badly beaten.

-Michael

[anatta]

Well its 17:1 on the flop (I edited but its still mostly there). You are right, the odds of calling down are much less. I suggested that the odds that SB has hero beat (that is he doesnt have QQ, AQ, TT or something else) might make it worth seeing river for 2.5 BB. I assumed MP wasn't going to call all the way and I estimated pot size at 14 BB.

[DeeJ]

bottom 2 pair on a coordinated board, at least call down from here but get out if the action gets too hot. You do have a strong hand though, and are likely ahead. You aren't going to lose an Ace (AQ/AT Ax) from calling unless two more hearts come out.

Raise. You may pick up a K and really punish the flush draws (or even made flushes).

[elysium]

hi barry

this is a tough one barry, but you should raise, hoping to improve if reraised. unfortunate problems can crop up if the MP comes to life, and this is a situation that can become costly when that happens. and this is the whole reason for the raise.

you need to represent the straight to keep the MP lower straight from raising of the expensive round. you are also looking to fold that MP out of course, because if the EP doesn't come over the top, you want heads up action on the turn.

that is what is so important. you must reraise to driveout that MP.

on the turn, mo matter what card hits, you want to be checked to by the EP. so you reraise to driveout the MP, and to get checked to on the turn by the EP; much like raising for a free-showdown. i guess you could call it some type of variation of a free-showdown raise or something. and here's where your 2+2 schooling comes in because then, if you can manipulate the EP into checking to you on the turn, you check the turn down, provided of course that your heads up.

this technique gives you a much better idea about where you are in the hand, and also gets out a nuisancesome MP turn raiser who decideds to do a little representation betting of his own.

you need to reraise that flop barry.

[elindauer]

Since the SB 3-bet, your two pair is somewhat mediocre. You probably can't do anything to protect your hand unless you're behind, for example, if you raise the flop and the SB 3-bets, you might knock out a gutshot draw, but you're probably drawing pretty thin yourself. Tough situation.


I think the best play is to flat call. Now if the SB fires again on a turn blank, it doesn't look good, just call it down. If it's two bets to you on the turn, fold.

If instead the SB checks a blank and someone on your right bets, you should raise. Knock out those gutshots and protect what is (now) likely the best hand in a big pot.

If a blank is checked to you, bet.

If a queen or ten hits, you almost certainly drawing. Proceed accordingly.


Good luck.
Eric

[mplspoker]

Bottom 2 pair, but give me a break folding is horrible poker. hands you beat. AQs, QQ,TT, 99,88.. etc.

[chio]

[ QUOTE ]
Since the SB 3-bet, your two pair is somewhat mediocre. You probably can't do anything to protect your hand unless you're behind, for example, if you raise the flop and the SB 3-bets, you might knock out a gutshot draw, but you're probably drawing pretty thin yourself. Tough situation.


I think the best play is to flat call. Now if the SB fires again on a turn blank, it doesn't look good, just call it down. If it's two bets to you on the turn, fold.

If instead the SB checks a blank and someone on your right bets, you should raise. Knock out those gutshots and protect what is (now) likely the best hand in a big pot.

If a blank is checked to you, bet.

If a queen or ten hits, you almost certainly drawing. Proceed accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]

this sounds about right.

i don't think a flop raise accomplishes much
(1) there are no players behind you to knock out
(2) a worse hand probably won't play back at you
(3) the info you get is tainted because the board is drawy heavy

so just call on the flop, see what card/action the turn brings

[danderso8]

[ QUOTE ]
You do get to draw cheaply to your backdoor str8!


[/ QUOTE ]

The straight is worth exactly nothing here, because if it comes, then the nut straight is on the board and it's a split.

I like what elysium said, but with capitalization.

--dan

[anatta]

Yeah, I was just joking around. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[elysium]

hi dander

i do capitalize, but only at the table.

[mmcd]

AQs, QQ,TT, 99,88.. etc.

You are giving this player FAR too wide a range of hands given the description and the action.

Most of the time he has: AA KK AK AQs JJ. QQ and TT are possible, but I think its unlikely that a solid player leads into 3 opponents with either of these hands.

This situation is far from cut and dry. If he is behind (which is fairly likely here) He's drawing to 0-2 outs and probably has to commit to see a showdown absent an A or a 4-liner hitting the board.

I honestly don't know what the right answer is here as it would depend heavily on the opponent and the way in which he 3-bet and bet the flop.

You are going to be subject to making a mistake here no matter what you do, but folding is not drastically worse than any other course of action.

[elysium]

hi barry

i need to add some clarification here. i actually misread or lost focus on the exact situation you layed out in your post, and i should have gone back over it which i didn't. the reason for the raise is that you want to represent the nuts. you don't want to encourage a representation round of raising by the third nut hand, should that situation arise on the turn. so it's a suppression raise, similar to raising for a free-showdown.

i misread it as something that allowed a second or third nut hand an opportunity to represent the nut hand on the flop, but that's not possible. sorry for the confusion. what's important is that it is the same idea even with AKJ flopping. you need to get the possible nut hand to check to you, and you want the MP out, period. the problem of course, isn't the strength of the MP's hand. if he can manage some kind of lower straight with his two cards, against all reason, you want him out not because of his possible holding, but rather because of his liklihood of ruining your play. not only might he betout on the turn when the EP checks, he might inspire the EP not to check, but rather betout and trap. that is what you don't want. so you must raise or reraise, whatever it was, and show nut strength. if the nut hand is out (or a better hand) that would be too bad, but you are too strong to give up at almost any point in the hand barring a very ugly turn and river. you must do whatever you must to win this hand.

[sthief09]

there's no way you're releasing this hand in a reasonably big pot for one bet on this flop. I'd just call, planning to put 1 bet in on every street. for more than one bet, I'd consider dropping the hand.

given the fact there were 2 limpers before your raise, I'd think his range of raising hands would increase in order to get some dead money in the pot. Am I giving him too much credit?

[King_J]

[ QUOTE ]
hi barry

this is a tough one barry, but you should raise, hoping to improve if reraised. unfortunate problems can crop up if the MP comes to life, and this is a situation that can become costly when that happens. and this is the whole reason for the raise.

you need to represent the straight to keep the MP lower straight from raising of the expensive round. you are also looking to fold that MP out of course, because if the EP doesn't come over the top, you want heads up action on the turn.

that is what is so important. you must reraise to driveout that MP.

on the turn, mo matter what card hits, you want to be checked to by the EP. so you reraise to driveout the MP, and to get checked to on the turn by the EP; much like raising for a free-showdown. i guess you could call it some type of variation of a free-showdown raise or something. and here's where your 2+2 schooling comes in because then, if you can manipulate the EP into checking to you on the turn, you check the turn down, provided of course that your heads up.

this technique gives you a much better idea about where you are in the hand, and also gets out a nuisancesome MP turn raiser who decideds to do a little representation betting of his own.

you need to reraise that flop barry.

[/ QUOTE ]

A well respected poster talks about flop-reraises. Unless I missed something really bad I get scared when I hear this. It is just a single raise, not a re-raise?
Or what did I miss?

[Poker_pete]

This is an easy fold. How many hands does he three bet that you can beat? You probably have two outs here a good portion of the time. If you are ahead you are playing against two drawing hands. You are a slight favorite some of the time and a huge dog most of the time. There will be better times to get you money in.

The first rule of poker is patience. The second rule of poker is aggression. Don't flip them here.

[James282]

Folding this against me would probably be a mistake. But then again, so would raising.
-James

[mikelow]

I would call the flop as it completes the action. But with the description of the SB this is close to a fold on the flop. If a blank comes (hopefully a black card), and the SB bets out again, I would have to consider laying this one down.

[Barry]

I should have added in the post that the SB, was somewhat on the week tight side. So my read is that she would bet the flop, but she would not bet the turn without at least top 2. So my plan was to call a flop bet and fold if she bet the turn.

The turn was really ugly, a T, it was checked around. The river was another T and it was checked around again. She showed her AK, and we both mucked.

[elysium]

hi king

yeah, that's what i get for posting with the ol' headphones on. actually, the correction concerned my suggestion that barry needed to stop the lower straight from reraising. well, there is no lower straight, but he should still reraise to driveout the MP, and to stop the MP aggression. it isn't capped at 3 bets is it?