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09-10-2001, 07:29 PM
Late position, AdKh. Sam B opens in middle position for 15. One caller, I raise it to 50, both call.


Flop comes Kd8d4d. They both check, I bet 100. Sam makes it 300, guy folds.


I have about 500 left. Sam just covers me, by maybe $20.


I think about it a sec, then move in. He calls instantly, and turns over QdJd. The board pairs low, giving me a few more outs, but no help on the river.


Comments?


- target

09-12-2001, 07:03 AM
I don't play NL (a lot of PL), but I'd make the following observations.


First, it's an easy call for Sam B because given his cards you could only have the nut flush with ATd or worse, which seems wildly unlikely given your pre-flop re-raise. I should have though it was fairly easy for him to put you on AA with the Ad, or AdKx as you had.


Second, was your all-in move a good idea? It was made following a check-raise, which in PL circles at least would usually mean either a really big hand or a big draw trying to win the pot on the spot (a sort of semi-bluff). In the present case, the only come hand he could really be betting would be the Ad, but you had that yourself. So in your shoes I would not have gone all in. You could pass and it would only have cost you 150.


Third, was the call of the re-raise before the flop with QJs correct? He only had to call 35 more into a pot which must have been about 100 or so, with about 800 more to win from you, and some unstated amount from the third player. So calling was pretty clearly right to my mind.


Fourth, was the check-raise correct? I would have thought that the danger of giving a free card to the Ad was too great.


Oh no!! Not again!

09-17-2001, 03:19 AM
I would think you would want to raise more pre flop. With $40 in the pot, the raise is too small here especially with another interested party to deal with. Make it $125 and he has no way to call you unless he really wants to gamble and the other caller probably folds as well, they know that since you start with $650 your last $525 very likely will be bet after the flop and it takes a lot of luck on the flop for QJ suited to be able to call that. Offsuit AK and you are happy to pick up the pot right away. The way you played the hand seems pretty straight forward after that. Sam tried to goad you into betting your stack and it worked. If you didn't go in on the flop you would have been forced into going in on the turn by his bet, this hand is one where you were going to lose your stack no matter. Yeah you might not have lost the stack had you checked the flop, but if you check that flop with your hand you probably wear a skirt to the card room too.


A very famous tournament player (decent live game player too), taught me this simple formula for preflop play. If you have a hand that you want to win the pot right away (AK/AQ off, smaller pairs), bet the pot times the number of players that are "live" including yourself. Don't count players after you or blinds unless the pot is unraised at this point. So in this case there is $40 in the pot and three "live" players, including yourself so a $120 bet. Of course you can't be that predictable and there are some hands where you might not necessarily be trying to win it there, but in my mind no doubt you have to raise more than what you did. Oh well I only have maybe 150 hours of live game NL experience so I am no expert, but I know that small raises with hands like AK off is just asking for trouble. I like making a good sized raise and if someone comes over the top of me I know my chances aren't good and I probably throw it away.

09-17-2001, 02:59 PM
... this hand is one where you were going to lose your stack no matter ...


I would say no. Like any poker situation, a little bit of thought can reveal the truth of the situation. You hold the key card in this hand, the Ad. Since you have the Ad, it's not possible for Sam to be betting a draw. Any decent no limit player knows that pushing non-nut flush draws is death. Therefore, Sam is not on a draw.


When Sam makes a stack-threatening raise on that flop, from out of position, you are facing a set or a made flush. He KNOWS you have a K. You are not pot-stuck yet and can get away from it.


I probably would have gone broke but from outside the hand, it's pretty obvious Sam flopped big. The Ad in your hand eliminates a MAJOR possible holding for Sam. The only remaining hands he can play this way are currently beating your top pair.




If you have a hand that you want to win the pot right away (AK/AQ off, smaller pairs), bet the pot times the number of players that are "live" including yourself. Don't count players after you or blinds unless the pot is unraised at this point.




I would urge all no limit players, especially those who play in my home game, to follow this advice religiously.


natedogg

09-17-2001, 10:00 PM
Pretty funny. Then again how many gamblers you have in your home game? This was a rule made for these tight-ish casino games with modest blinds, where a good sized raise will bring out the real hands and get rid of the trash. I have played in some 2-5 NL games where guys would call $100 pre-flop raises with things like K-J off and 33 when there were already callers or many players still to act. In this case I probably wouldn't follow the advice. Just a rule of thumb and in this case I can almost assure you that you win $40 for you offsuit Slick unless Sam is a millionaire and doesn't care about the money.


As for your analysis on the bet, excellent point there. Tough to say for sure though because Sam's play wasn't really quantified. If there is any chance Sam is making a move you are making a huge mistake not staying in the pot. You have to be certain that Sam is aware of all these facts and that Sam won't get out of line because he knows that you know what he thinks. A player of very high quality might have avoided losing his stack, but I doubt there are that many players that would have folded in that spot. Pot odds added to your strong draw are too good.

09-18-2001, 06:06 PM
This was a rule made for these tight-ish casino games with modest blinds, where a good sized raise will bring out the real hands and get rid of the trash.


Why on EARTH would you want to do that? I think this guy has totally confused his tournament play tactics with his live game play.


But the main reason I think this advice is so horrible is it gives a formula that completely disregards position and stack sizes. This tactic is probably one of the fastest paths to destruction possible for a beginning no limit player.


natedogg