NL hand at LC (long)

Here is a hand that I have been thinking about for awhile and I still have questions about. Blinds as usual, 10, 10, 20 (ten on button) I am 4 to the left of big blind, Sam is to my immediate right. My stack size is 5800, Sam's is approx the same. UTG comes out with $80 bet (common raise in game), fold to Sam who comes over the top with 400 bet, I look down to AcKc, I flat call with seemingly little thought (I am up 1800 or so in game, quick call was calculated to represent a weaker drawing hand or middle pair, also confident that with Sam betting here nobody behind me will come in, confirmed with a quick glance to my left), all fold including intial raiser, 920 in pot. Flop comes 9c5s4s, Sam with little hesitation bets about 1/2 his stack, approx 2600. I immediately think kk, aa, I have a feeling I know I am beat, but his bet seemed a little fishy. Now, I was thinking and searching for information, I had been friendly with Sam and we had talked occasionally throughout the session, so I tried some conversation (although I was 95% sure I was going to fold). I think I said something like "that good huh?" and really no response, then I said, after thinking for awhile (other players are anxious), "if I throw it away will you show me?", not something I would usually do, Sam responded with a "yeah I'll show you" and this is where I think I made a mistake and I didn't analyze the response which could have been a big clue. Anyways, I muck, he shows me KsQs, and I was a little shocked. What does everybody think? 1) Did I put myself in a bad situation pre-flop with just a call? 2) Should I have called preflop at all? 3) When I "missed" flop and huge bet by best player should I immediately muck? 4) What about fishing for info? In hindsight I think I should have come over the top preflop for 1000-1200 and take it down. Did he give me info when he agreed to show me hand? I don't know, please respond to help me clear it up. Thanks in advance

This hand should get you a lot of really good responses. You basically mucked your hand because you had a "feeling" his hand was better -- getting reads on players is very important in hold 'em. I run into situations like this all the time -- I have a good hand, but I let someone "bluff over me" and end up mucking. I muck QQ and find out someone had J10s! My solution is learning not to be afraid to re-raise. Initially you did have the better hand with AK suited than his KQ suited. And as a woman I recently played with said over the weekend, "You're never going to make money in Hold 'Em if you don't raise with AK suited!" Good advice. I would have raised pre-flop -- Sam is in middle position, so he probably would only bet with a high pair or with high face cards. The flop only helps with a spade draw, and if he checks after the flop, that could be a sign that is what he's trying for. In that case, make him pay to beat you: in other words, bet!


If it makes you feel better, Sam only needs 1 card for the flush after the flop. Now you know Sam's play a little better and it didn't cost you that much to find out -- you got out of the hand early. You can use this information to your advantage later.


Good luck!

It's hard with sam, but one thing you should think about is why someone says something or gives away information.


When a player asks to see a hand if they fold, especially a bad player, it's because they think they should fold, but want to see the person's hand. Telling such a player that you can see their hand makes them more comfortable about folding. In other words, you're encouraging them to fold.


Now, I have no idea what sam thought about your play, or how he categorized you as a player. He's clearly capable of thinking about levels within levels. But it does seem to me that he deliberately made it easier for you to fold, which may mean that he wanted you to fold.


Which means that he's not thrilled about his hand, and you might be able to take the pot from him.


It also might mean that he's been playing loosely for a while, and wants to show that he has the goods to help with future pot-stealing, of course. But sam really likes to show down bad hand after bad hand, then have the winner when the money actually goes in.


So I think you fished for information, got a little, but didn't quite know what to do with it.


Of course, sam is one of the hardest players to read, in part because he could be moving in with all kinds of crap, but is careful about when he does it.


- target

1) Did I put myself in a bad situation pre-flop with just a call?


I don't like the call unless you have an exact plan for playing the flop. (E.g. all in if A, K or 2 c's hit). I don't know the culture of the LC game or your image, but you might have considered a raise to either take it right there or get more info.


2) Should I have called preflop at all?


To me, this depends entirely on your read of Sam.


3) When I "missed" flop and huge bet by best player should I immediately muck?


Like all things, this depends. But my feeling is that you should have all the contingicies (sp?) covered before the flop hits the board.


4) What about fishing for info? In hindsight I think I should have come over the top preflop for 1000-1200 and take it down. Did he give me info when he agreed to show me hand?


Don't know LC. Don't know Sam, but from what I've heard of him, getting info from him (and all 'A' players) will get you broke. I am sure Sam has noted the incident, and has ranked the top ten ways to get your stack with it if it recurs. You can start thinking about it, too, but be careful.

If you just call with your AK then of course you must fold on that flop unless you have a great read on a guy. There is no reason to jeopordize that much money with no pair and two of a suit on the board.


As for your preflop play...I think you're going to have to start reraising with that hand. Otherwise good players are going to sniff that you only reraise with big pocket pairs. And if your stacks are deep you are begging to get busted. You're going to get AK a lot more than any high pair...you need to increase the frequency of your preflop reraises. This is assuming you have the discipline to get away from the hand most of the time if you miss. This way people can't just arbitrarily call you with small pairs/suited connectors hoping to bust your big pair because you might be holding AK and not even pay off. In Sklansky/Malmuth language this is reducing their implied odds of a prelop call. AK is a trash hand when it misses the flop hence you shouldn't put in big money except for a bluff or reading a bluff.


Hope this helps.


Oh yeah...this also helps when you reraise with say QQ and an Ace flops. If everyone checks you can at least try to represent AK and not get bluffed off your hand. After all, if you only reraise with pocket pairs how likely is it that you flopped a set of aces? I love playing no limit with guys who only reraise big pocket pairs. It's easy. If an ace flops I raise them almost every time. If they call I'm pretty sure they have trips...but my opponents don't flop that set enough for me to lose money in the long run on this play.