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View Full Version : JJ in 'Low limit' PLH


09-05-2001, 09:30 AM
Eight-handed pot-limit game with $1 & $2 blinds, playing with a number of players I've started playing a few sessions lately and a few other I've barely played before, but the thing is, my pot-limit experience with most of these players is pretty small. Actually, my pot-limit experience is all-together pretty small, I've played mostly straight limit in my short Hold'em career.


I've got about $180, when I open-raise from UTG ($7) with pocket jacks. Player behind me folds, but next player (MP) calls. Rest of the field, including the blinds, folds. MP is one of the solid player around this table, but also capable of making tricky moves (such as, I think, just smooth-calling with Aces or even Kings here).


Flop comes 7-4-3, two diamonds. I've got the Jack of diamonds. I bet the pot, $17. MP raises the pot by calling the $17 and raising back $51. He's got $71 left, I've got him more than covered. This is decision time for me. I must either fold or move my opponent all-in. With such a hand, that thinking must surely be correct?


The hands he could definitely have, I struggle to come up with any other than TT, AdQd, possibly AdTd and AdKd, although I think he would raised the latter and folded AdTd pre-flop. But all these are likely hands, and I'm in a very good spot against TT, in a good spot against AdTd, while it's about even money (and I've already got quite a bit in the pot already) against AdQd and AdKd.


The hands he could possibly have, poses more of a problem. He could be smooth-calling with AA and KK (most likely the latter). He could even be calling with queens, not neccesarily for slow-playing purposes, but because he may be amongst those who like to 'hit' the flop (Q or no A/K) before he plays it in PLH. I haven't gotten these reads on him yet.


Anyway, I move all-in on him. He thinks for a couple of minutes, then mutters 'well, I'm on my way home then...' as he puts in his last $71. A bit surprisingly, he is a strong as TdTx. Two blanks (one diamond) come off on the turn and river and I take down a nice pot.


But I can't help thinking that I was lucky to hit excactly that hand here. I think many solid PLH players would fold hands like 88 and even 99 pre-flop against an under-the-gun pot-sized raise. I might have hit *the* only hand that I could beat in this situation (except the crapshoot hands of AdKd or AdQd), and I put almost my entire (and his entire) stack on it, 80% of it in one move (when I should know that this *could* be the situation, that I only beat a couple of the hands he could have). I am also disturbed by the fact that when I get this marginal situation working my way, I am almost not getting paid off for my last raise, if you catch my drift.


lars

09-05-2001, 11:59 AM
I would definitely play a pocket pair for < 5% of my stack here. You could easily run into pocket 7's, 4's, or 3's... along with all the other hands you discussed above. The reason I like to play little pocket pairs is when I flop a set against an over pair I am likely to get paid off. If you had AA or KK not JJ, you would almost certainly pay me off when I hit my set by the sounds of it... so for a $7 investment preflop I have a chance to win $180... a good bet in my book.


I think you could have easily lost this hand, but you obviously can win it as well. I don't think smooth calling with AA or KK is a good idea here because it is too easy for you to get away from the pot cheaply. You almost folded after putting in a $17 pot sized raised which wouldn't have hurt you very badly.


Your read on your opponent is by far the most important factor here. If you think you have him beat raise all-in.


I am torn on whether or not I make the the play myself... so good play.


Derrick

09-05-2001, 02:26 PM
Good read this time, but if you replay this situation with JJ a hundred times I doubt you will make any money. I think JJ is the most misplayed hand in big bet poker. There is simply NO flop that is good for your hand that doesn't have a jack in it.


In pot limit and even in no limit, JJ in early position should be treated the same as 77. Get in cheap and try to bust someone who won't believe you made a set.


JJ is a great hand to play passively before the flop because everyone else plays it aggressively. Again, I'm only talking about early position.


When you make your set, you are sure to get paid. They will NEVER believe you didn't raise with JJ. This is especially true if you are doing the right thing and raising liberally from late position. Most players fail to note position when they observe your play. They'll see that you once raised preflop with 87s (when you were on the button) and with 33 (when you were on the button) so how could you possibly have flopped a set of jacks when you only limped in (UTG)?


natedogg

09-05-2001, 10:14 PM
Good thoughts on JJ, I guess I have not thought about how almost most flops puts JJ in trouble even with no over cards. On another subject, how is the no limit game at Lucky these days? Haven,t played since I busted out of the game with some relatively bad beats, at least situations where I thought I played correctly.

09-10-2001, 01:17 AM
NateDog as usual is right on the money. The reason IMHO that so many people put extreme high value on a Jack is the fact that it is a PAINT. However, if cards were assigned a numerical value from 2 to 13 the jack would be valued at a 10 and it would not be as appealing to the average to below average player; however, the value of the card is the same in both instances. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I think it is beneficial to realize which opponents have this view.


MarkW

09-13-2001, 09:25 AM
However, what does the crowd think of MP's play?


I think he should maybe have called the flop, then bet the pot on the turn on any card if checked to and fold to a raise on the turn unless it bring a ten?


lars

09-16-2001, 08:42 PM
I like to call preflop with a hand like JJ because I prefer to avoid such situations. Its not the king of hand I want to committ my whole stack to when I flop an overpair.