Who Won the first Debate?

[Nepa]

[Nepa]

The poll is open now.

[Dynasty]

I voted for tied. The general concensus is that means Bush maintains his lead in the polls and Kerry has missed his opportunity. I'm still wondering if Kerry gains simply by looking Presidential on the national stage.

Generally, it was a clean debate without much negativity. They attacked each others positions. But, I don't consider this negative.

There was no big gaffe which will get repeated. I don't think there was any exchange which will define this debate. Perhaps that means the debate will fade in voter's memory?

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted for tied.

[/ QUOTE ]

I voted for Kerry but it was pretty close to being a tie. I'm wondering how much is going to be made out of Bush smirking at a lot of Kerry's responses.

[tanda]

Global test?

Fox News (no surprise) just focused on it.

[Non_Comformist]

I will be voting for Bush but thought the debate was a tie. Kerry did much better than I expected.

[BrettK]

I really think Kerry creamed the President tonight. He kept Bush on his heels for what seemed like the entire debate, being the political equivalent of a TAG. As such, his "plan" for Iraq, his "plan" for Russian nuclear material and his "plan" for rebuilding international relationships never had to be clearly defined. Bush wasn't able to stop mumbling catch phrases for long enough to return fire. As long as Kerry's bluffs go uncalled, they'll remain +ElectoralCollegeEV. Bush retains my vote, but tonight was the first time I've been embarassed to say so, and I hope I never again have to hear him say, "Every life is preshish."

Brett

[Matty]

Kerry by a landslide.

Apparently abc and cbs did some "snappolls" - whatever the hell that is, which had Kerry winning easily.

CNN.com and msnbc.com online polls both have Kerry winning at about 80%.

For whatever that's worth.

www.dailykos.com (http://www.dailykos.com)
www.mydd.com (http://www.mydd.com)

[Nepa]

All of the Bush supporters must of went to sleep early tonight.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
All of the Bush supporters must of went to sleep early tonight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, Bush just blew chunks at the debate.

He did everything that Newt said not to do.

No grandma in the living room voice
No "I won't step to that level"
No ignoring Kerry's tactics
No ....

Pinnacle will show I am right. Just watch. It was 230 -200

[Rushmore]

Bush wins, and I'll tell you why.

Bush is convincingly committed to his policies, for whatever they're worth. It's obvious he's passionate about his beliefs.

Kerry says the war is a mistake. Kerry says the US needs to build a stronger alliance. Kerry says he will not pull the troops out.

So, then, uh, Kerry intends to pitch this alliance to prospective allies by telling them that sure, it's wrong and bad, but hey--come on board, get on the team!

This inconsistency alone clearly illustrates Kerry's lack of understanding about how to lead.

I'm no fan of Bush. But I can't understand how anyone could say that Kerry came off as "presidential" in any way.

[Nicholasp27]

we made a mistake...we need to change leaders, admit our mistake, and get help to fix it...we don't need another vietnam

not to mention, iraq has THREE distinct ethnic groups that HATE each other (Bosnia Part 2 anyone?), so even if we free them with elections, there will be civil war within a few years and we'll have another Bosnia situation...

Kerry said that we did it the wrong way, but now all we can do is own up to our mistake, support our troops, and fix this mess...

[GWB]

Kerry sounded good as he spoke, but he still didn't tell us his plan. In the next 24 hours, this will be pointed out.

Before long, my supporters will point out the inconsistencies. I went into this debate knowing that what I said would not matter (absent a big mistake).

Kerry had to put forward a plan and not be inconsistent. He failed - but it will take time for us to cobble the clips together.


A lot of quick quotes spoken in the debtes - from ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html)

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry sounded good as he spooke, but he still didn't tell us his plan. In the next 24 hours, this will be pointed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think your going to win the spin war on this one. Don't worry there are 2 more debates. Reagan tanked his first debate vs. Mondale and he came back.

[GWB]

source (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html)

KERRY ON WHETHER HE HAS SAID BUSH HAS LIED: "Well, I've never, ever used the harshest word as you just did," Sen. John Kerry says.


BUT HE HAS SAID BUSH HAS LIED: "This administration has lied to us," Sen. John Kerry said Sept. 20, 2003 in Claremont, NH.


BUSH ON WHAT KERRY WANTS YOU TO FORGET: "What my opponent wants you to forget is that he voted for the war," says President Bush

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry by a landslide.


[/ QUOTE ]

More proof that being a fanatic and simply wishing upon a star will make you go blind. I agree with Dynasty, pretty close to a tie. If anything I give Kerry credit for looking better than expected. That alone gives him a marginal victory.

Anyone who thinks this debate went strongly either way just doesn't understand debating.

Jimbo

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks this debate went strongly either way just doesn't understand debating.

[/ QUOTE ]Well it looks like 83% of us don't understand debating as well as you do.

Care to impart some of your wisdom?

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Global test?

Fox News (no surprise) just focused on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do the people watch an unbiased news channel then piss and moan over the result? They get upset when it does not embrace their liberal position. If you want a left wing bias you have ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN and PBS, 5 other left wing networks to enjoy.

Jimbo

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
Well it looks like 83% of us don't understand debating as well as you do.


[/ QUOTE ]

And at least one of you isn't doing so well with reading comprehension either. I wrote that Kerry eeked out a marginal victory at best. If you think he won by a landslide you should increase your bet on Kerry becoming President.

Jimbo

[The_Tracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps that means the debate will fade in voter's memory?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like wishful thinking.

Some of you must be out of your minds. Kerry buried Bush during this debate. He stood tall, looked calm, clear headed, MADE SENSE, and had very good ideas on these very serious issues.

Bush looked confused, angry, drunk, and like his only thought and prayer was that it would be over soon. I mean, the last hour he stopped even using his allotted time. He would be asked a specific question, and would go off on some strange tangent that had nothing to do with the question.

I am not a Bush fan, but I was no huge Kerry supporter either. But after what I saw tonight, Kerry easily "looks" and "sounds" the part of president. Bush is just embarrassing.

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
And at least one of you isn't doing so well with reading comprehension either. I wrote that Kerry eeked out a marginal victory at best. If you think he won by a landslide you should increase your bet on Kerry becoming President.

[/ QUOTE ]Well considering there is no such thing as an exact "tie", I would interpret a "marginal victory at best" into the tie column.

[MelchyBeau]

I believe that the nonverbals are where it matters most for alot of people. We have heard the same rhetoric over and over and over. The general public will see these 2 people physically side by side.

Bush looked flustered to me. His stuttering tried to get his word in was noticed by many people who watched it with me. (Note: these were all fellow debaters on my team 50% pro bush 50% pro kerry). One of the biggest non-verbal mistakes Bush made was the very long pause before saying something. People will see this as hesitant, and not very confident.

Kerry seemed very confident. Whether or not he flip floped or whatever, (Disclaimer: I am a Kerry supporter). One must admit he seemed more confident than Bush in this debate. He also seemed to not become flustered at what Bush was saying. This was not true for Bush.

I am not debating the issues here, I am just sharing my opinion on what will affect the voters.

BTW, I thought the Daily Shows coverage of the Undecided voters issue was frikken funny.

Melch

[Analyst]

You may have listened to the Bush spin on what Kerry said rather than on what Kerry actually said. Regardless of whether you agree with him or not, Kerry's message on his plan for Iraq seemed pretty clear: we blew by it going into Iraq, we've screwed up on the execution, but now that we're there let's fix it the right way.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]

Some of you must be out of your minds. Kerry buried Bush during this debate. He stood tall, looked calm, clear headed, MADE SENSE, and had very good ideas on these very serious issues.


[/ QUOTE ]


I agree on everything but Kerry having an Idea. I taped it, and I still don't see Kerry actually saying what he is going to do. Nothing really tangible.

[SinCityGuy]

CNN / GALLUP POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE

Kerry: 53
Bush: 37

CBS POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 44
Bush: 26
Tie: 30

ABC POLL ON WHO WON DEBATE:

Kerry: 45
Bush 36:
Tie: 17

Mort Kondracke: “This is the President's turf, this is the place that the President is supposed to dominate, terror and the war in Iraq. I don't think he really dominated tonight. I think Kerry looked like a commander-in-chief.”

Kate O'Beirne, National Review Online’s the Corner: "I thought the President was repetitive and reactive."

Jonah Goldberg, National Review Online's the Corner: "The Bush campaign miscalculated on having the first night be foreign policy night."

Bob Schieffer: “The President was somewhat defensive in the beginning”

Mark Shields: "The President showed a few times obvious anger"

Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard: “I think Kerry did pretty well tonight, he was forceful and articulate.”

Bob Schieffer: “Kerry got off to a very good start.”

Joe Scarborough: “It was John Kerry’s best performance ever…As far as the debate goes, I don’t see how anybody could look at this debate and not score this a very clear win on points for John Kerry.” (MSNBC)

Andrea Mitchell: “This is the toughest we’ve ever seen John Kerry. He attacked the very core of the President’s popularity. He’s basically saying, who do you believe?” (MSNBC)

Tim Russert: “Tonight he seemed to find his voice for the Democratic view of the world.”

Fred Barnes on FNC: "Kerry did very well and we will have a Presidential race from here on out."

[IrishHand]

You need to be a pretty hardcore (read: not interested in looking at the actual issues) Bush supporter to think that he got anything but brutalized tonight. The difference in intelligence, wit and adaptability was phenomenal. It's still a "lesser of evils" choice in my mind, but at least one evil is at least somewhat Presidential.

[natedogg]

He is a U.N.-loving one-worlder who doesn't respect our own sovereignty.

I did not know he supported our participation in the world criminal court until Bush mentioned it tonight. Is that true?

If so, this is a man who fought in our military and now wants to have our boys beholden to a world court?

Unbelievable.

natedogg

[Stu Pidasso]

Kerry looked much stronger and did an excellent job in presenting himself. Those who would vote for a ham sandwhich over President Bush must be exstatic.

As time goes on people are going to forget about the presentation. They will be asking themselves, "What was Kerrys plan in Iraq? Build a coalition or hold a summit...something like that"

Bush was typical Bush. However, his message is the one that is ultimately going to echo in the minds of the undecided over the next couple of weeks. That is:

Kerry doesn't have the conviction of heart to lead. As politcs change so does Kerry's position. How can Kerry be a good Commander and Chief when he says things that demoralize the troops. How can Kerry strenghten our aliances when he is disingenuous to our most faithful freinds. Kerry will only act in this nations best interest if the international community approves.

I suspect Kerry is going to get a small short term bounce out of this debate. He'll need to win the next two though if he is going to win the presidency.

Stu

[1111]

[ QUOTE ]
He is a U.N.-loving one-worlder who doesn't respect our own sovereignty.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is being what you call a "one-worlder" a negative. A very simple precept of those in power is to appease those who are less fortunate. If we throw the world a bone or three in the UN and in other world forums we are actually ensuring the continual dominance of the US. Loudly proclaiming your independence and right to act as you please is a sign of weakness, not strength. A true independent nation would simply do as it pleases by convincing others that it is in their best interests to do the same, not by intimidation, but by persuasion. If you don't understand these concepts, you truly do not understand politics.

[adios]

I heard the last 20 minutes of the debate. Bush came off style wise about what I expected, not all that great. He just doesn't do well in front of the cameras. Substance wise I think Bush won handily from what I heard. I think Kerry will be destroyed in the coming days on his "global test" comment, his derogatory comments about bunker busting nukes, and his policy of bilateral negotiations with North Korea. I've read a few comments about Bush letting North Korea develop nukes. What will Kerry do, hit Krazy Kim with Theresa's purse?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
source (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html)

KERRY ON WHETHER HE HAS SAID BUSH HAS LIED: "Well, I've never, ever used the harshest word as you just did," Sen. John Kerry says.


BUT HE HAS SAID BUSH HAS LIED: "This administration has lied to us," Sen. John Kerry said Sept. 20, 2003 in Claremont, NH.




[/ QUOTE ]

IS Bush the entire administration? I hope not. You lose this point, sir.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
As politcs change so does Kerry's position

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean like when Bush OPPOSED the formation of a 9/11 commission, then said he was all for it?
You mean like when Bush OPPOSED having Condoleeza Rice testify in front of same commission, then changes his mind when he started taking a poll hit for it?
You mean like when women used to not be able to vote, and now they can, since THINGS CHANGED!
You mean like when blacks used to not be able to vote, and now they can, since THINGS CHANGED!

These are all reasons why the constitution is considered a living document. Nothing is set in stone.

Except, of course, GWB's mind.

[GWB]

It may not be fair, but as the incumbant when I change positions I have "refined my policy", but when Kerry changes positions he has "flip-flopped".

Don't vote for the flip-flopper!

[Stu Pidasso]

I see Its already starting to echo

Stu

[BWebb]

[ QUOTE ]
He is a U.N.-loving one-worlder who doesn't respect our own sovereignty.

natedogg

[/ QUOTE ]
I hate to say it, but this is the simplemindedness that Kerry is going to have to defeat to win the presidency. The only true road to peace and safety for the US is a one-world approach. Invading countries and forcing our will on them (especially when the country we invade had nothing to do with an attack on us) will not gain us allies or discourage terrorism, it will only do the opposite.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
I did not know he supported our participation in the world criminal court until Bush mentioned it tonight. Is that true?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep it's true.

[ QUOTE ]
If so, this is a man who fought in our military and now wants to have our boys beholden to a world court?

[/ QUOTE ]

You got it right.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate to say it, but this is the simplemindedness that Kerry is going to have to defeat to win the
presidency.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me the term one-worlder means someone who is amenable to the notion of a one-world government, or someone who actually wishes the U.N. had more teeth.

That is a [censored] horrible idea and it would be a disaster for the world, not just the U.S.

If you understood what I meant and still call it simple-minded, then I can only say you haven't thought about it hard enough.

natedogg

[jokerswild]

Almost 75% of the posters here believe Kerry won.
Moreover, Kerry has more votes in the thread of for whom will you vote.

This is a huge bounce for Kerry on the 2+2 boards.
If this board is any indication, Kerry will get quite a bounce.

[anatta]

[ QUOTE ]
It may not be fair, but as the incumbant when I change positions I have "refined my policy", but when Kerry changes positions he has "flip-flopped".

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand. As leader of the free world, you often have to adapt. It sounds difficult. In fact, you can clear this up for me since it wasn't covered in the debate...

Is being President hard work? I mean even with Poland's help and all. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Michael Davis]

I can't believe you accused natedogg of simple-mindedness.

-Michael

[The Dude]

I think this poll would be more revealing if there were the following options:

1) Strong Kerry Victory
2) Marginal Kerry Victory
3) Virtually Even
4) Marginal Bush Victory
5) Strong Bush Victory

[Rah]

I can't understand how any of you would want Bush as a president. I live in Sweden, and both here and in other parts of Europe, people are protesting against Bush regularly with demonstrations. Americans are getting a terrible reputation, being hated everywhere, because of Bushs foreign politics.

I viewed the debate live and my impression was; how could anyone vote for that guy? His replies are unintelligent and dodging. The way he tried to defend Kerrys attacks were just stupid. Calling that debate a tie is ridiculous.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
Almost 75% of the posters here believe Kerry won.
Moreover, Kerry has more votes in the thread of for whom will you vote.

This is a huge bounce for Kerry on the 2+2 boards.
If this board is any indication, Kerry will get quite a bounce.

[/ QUOTE ]

Previous polls here on 2+2 showed a big Kerry support edge too. It seems the debate only reinforced people's previous choice.

[nicky g]

But didn't polls of the coutnry as a whole and a raft of conservative commentators also agree that Kerry did better? Not having seen it, I don;t know myself.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
But didn't polls of the coutnry as a whole and a raft of conservative commentators also agree that Kerry did better? Not having seen it, I don;t know myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

More people thought Gore won the debates in 2000 (before the spin).

If a population like 2+2 supports Kerry by a 2 to 1 margin before the debate and also after the debate, then no one has changed their position.

Kerry needs to pick up voters to vote for him, not people that say "Kerry won the debate but I still support Bush."

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
But didn't polls of the coutnry as a whole and a raft of conservative commentators also agree that Kerry did better? Not having seen it, I don;t know myself.

[/ QUOTE ]You are correct. Most conservative bloggers are conceding a Kerry victory as well. Even FoxNews people are conceding.

Gallup, ABC, and CBS all took quick polls which had Kerry the clear winner.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/content/?ci=13237

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a4_cuQ3d6r2o&refer=top_world _news

[El Barto]

Same from ABC poll: (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/Vote2004/debate_poll_040930.html)

Kerry wins the debate, but no one changes their mind about who to support.

Pre debate: Bush 50, Kerry 46
After Debate: Bush 51, Kerry 47

Same group say Kerry won debate: Kerry 45, Bush 36

[cjromero]

As I have mentioned before, I am a Bush supporter, but I was prepared to support a Democratic candidate (likely Lieberman) if that Democratic candidate could make a strong case with specific details on how his foreign policy efforts would be different and effective to combat terrorism. Kerry simply isn't that candidate. While his inconsistent positions on Iraq don't bother me that much (as I don't believe the Iraq war was necessary), his desire to cowtow to the UN and his rejection of preemption bother me more.

Having said that, I believe that Kerry won a clear victory in the debate on style points alone. Bush appeared angry, defensive, and exasperated throughout the debate, and he ran out of gas after the first 45 minutes or so. As someone who wants Bush to win, I was disappointed in his performance.

Supporters of Kerry should be cautious however. Flash polls taken after the first Bush/Gore debate in 2000 showed that Gore won a decisive victory, but it was the incredible job that the Bush spinners did in the two days following that first debate that made all the difference. Gore's sighs. Gore's rolling of the eyes. And most importantly, Gore's exaggerations and misstatements on many issues.

Just because Kerry won the debate doesn't mean he will get a huge long-term bounce in the polls.

[BadBoyBenny]

Is it just me or did anyone else think it ws really strange that both candidates were taking so many notes when the other guy was talking. They were only talking for 1 to 2 minutes at a time, it seems like it would be easy enough to keep track of what the other guy is saying in their heads.

[tolbiny]

Only if people voted on the issues. Most (undecided) people vote with their emotions. What Kerry was able to do last night was
1. Convince a lot of people who were in the "anybody but Bush" crowd, to say that I don't mind voting, and may actually look forward to, voting for Kerry. This will lead to a better turnout on election day for Kerry, which is a small plus.

2. He looked good, talked clearly and this will make a good impression in people's minds. It will make a decent amount of undecideds lean towards Kerry, another small step.

What bush loses in this debate- there are undecided voters leaning towards bush who just need a "reason" to vote for him. He hasn't given them that reason in this debate, and he will slowly run out of time (if he keeps up this performance) if he wants to galvinize thoase people and get them to the polls.

[GHWB]

There was a debate last night?

Sorry, Son. I missed it. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[elwoodblues]

The problem for Bush is this was the foreign policy debate. Foreign policy is the one area in which Bush has been a consistent favorite. Having Kerry "win" this one is a pretty big blow.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
As time goes on people are going to forget about the presentation. They will be asking themselves, "What was Kerrys plan in Iraq? Build a coalition or hold a summit...something like that"

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you crazy? You honestly think the people to whom this debate was geared (the undecideds) are going to remember the sustantive content of the speech over the presentation?

[nicky g]

Sorry, I thought you were trying to argue that people's judgement of the debates had fallen on party lines. I misunderstood.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
If anything I give Kerry credit for looking better than expected. That alone gives him a marginal victory.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think that coupled with the fact that this was the foreign policy debate (a topic where Bush should have looked better) gives Kerry a victory --- not a huge one, but a "win" in his column.

[Toro]

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry sounded good as he spoke, but he still didn't tell us his plan. In the next 24 hours, this will be pointed out.

Before long, my supporters will point out the inconsistencies. I went into this debate knowing that what I said would not matter (absent a big mistake).

Kerry had to put forward a plan and not be inconsistent. He failed - but it will take time for us to cobble the clips together.


A lot of quick quotes spoken in the debtes - from ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Kerry's plan is obvious. He will get us out of that quagmire asap if elected. But it would be totally irresponsible to say that now, when we have troops in harms way.

Once in office, he can get our people out of there safely and Iraq can have their Civil War and we can concentrate on the interests of this nation.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
If a population like 2+2 supports Kerry by a 2 to 1 margin before the debate and also after the debate, then no one has changed their position.

[/ QUOTE ]I have never noticed any such margin for Kerry on these boards. The reason for the high total for Kerry is quite simple, he blew Bush out of the water.

[GWB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If a population like 2+2 supports Kerry by a 2 to 1 margin before the debate and also after the debate, then no one has changed their position.

[/ QUOTE ]I have never noticed any such margin for Kerry on these boards. The reason for the high total for Kerry is quite simple, he blew Bush out of the water.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at these polls:

liberal/conservative (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=897817&pag e=14&view=collapsed&sb=7&o=93&vc=1&fpart=1)

democrat/republican (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=792088&page=20&view=colla psed&sb=7&o=93&fpart=1#792088)

SaltCracka's Poll (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=838516&page=32&view=colla psed&sb=7&o=93&fpart=1#838516)

[andyfox]

Kerry did not reject preemption. He specifically said a President always has the right of preemption to protect the country.

[Matty]

Boo-yah (http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/10/1/113046/486)

The most lop-sided victory since '92.

Let's watch them try and spin away from that one.

[Knockwurst]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted for tied. The general concensus is that means Bush maintains his lead in the polls and Kerry has missed his opportunity. I'm still wondering if Kerry gains simply by looking Presidential on the national stage.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. First, the question was who won the debate not who came out ahead after the debate. Second, most commentators both from the left and the right feel that Kerry did more than just look Presidential, but expressed a firm command of the issues, and that Bush had an off night. The polls seem to support this.

[ QUOTE ]
Generally, it was a clean debate without much negativity. They attacked each others positions. But, I don't consider this negative.

There was no big gaffe which will get repeated. I don't think there was any exchange which will define this debate. Perhaps that means the debate will fade in voter's memory?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I disagree that there was no big gaffe. At one point Bush said Saddam when he meant to say Bin Laden. In light of the fact that the Dems say Bush is confusing the two in his foriegn policy, I'd say that's a pretty major gaffe. A second clip they are already repeating and referring to is when Bush justified the invasion of Iraq by saying "they attacked us," and Kerry pointed out that Saddam didn't attack us, Bin Laden did.

I could understand more someone saying that the debate didn't change their vote, I can't see how you could say Bush even tied Kerry as far as his performance in the debate is concerned.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks this debate went strongly either way just doesn't understand debating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a lot of debate in high school and I think Kerry won convincingly. My point is not that this is so because I am a debater, just that your statement is bullshit. Try providing actual arguments.

[Knockwurst]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Kerry by a landslide.


[/ QUOTE ]

More proof that being a fanatic and simply wishing upon a star will make you go blind. I agree with Dynasty, pretty close to a tie. If anything I give Kerry credit for looking better than expected. That alone gives him a marginal victory.

Anyone who thinks this debate went strongly either way just doesn't understand debating.

Jimbo

[/ QUOTE ]

This is coming from a person who considers ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and PBS leftist propaganda and Fox unbiased, which Jimbo would put you slightly right of Joe McCarthy.

[theBruiser500]

HOW IS KERRY'S POSITION ON IRAQ INCONSISTENT?

People keep saying he is flipflopping but I don't see it. First of all I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with flipflopping, or in other words, changing your mind about something. If you do it for political reasons that is wrong, but if you do it because you have rethought better of the situation than "flipflopping" is better than staying on the incorrect course.

That being said, I don't see how Kerry has even flip flopped on Iraq. What is so hard to understand about his explination in the debate? He belives Saddam Hussein was a threat, and was in favor of action against him in a certain way but not the way Bush acted. He belives strongly in doing this internationally not unilaterially and only as a last resort. Also as someone said earlier, "Kerry said that we did it the wrong way, but now all we can do is own up to our mistake, support our troops, and fix this mess... "

Sorry if it took me more than one sentence to explain Kerry's position on Iraq but real policy is a nuanced thing and there is more to it than "I am for war with Iraq," and "I am against war with Iraq."

[Knockwurst]

[ QUOTE ]
source (http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html)

KERRY ON WHETHER HE HAS SAID BUSH HAS LIED: "Well, I've never, ever used the harshest word as you just did," Sen. John Kerry says.


BUT HE HAS SAID BUSH HAS LIED: "This administration has lied to us," Sen. John Kerry said Sept. 20, 2003 in Claremont, NH.


BUSH ON WHAT KERRY WANTS YOU TO FORGET: "What my opponent wants you to forget is that he voted for the war," says President Bush

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a difference between saying Bush lied and saying the administration lied. Do you see why?

[Knockwurst]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]

Look at these polls:

liberal/conservative (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=897817&pag e=14&view=collapsed&sb=7&o=93&vc=1&fpart=1)

democrat/republican (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=792088&page=20&view=colla psed&sb=7&o=93&fpart=1#792088)

SaltCracka's Poll (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=838516&page=32&view=colla psed&sb=7&o=93&fpart=1#838516)

[/ QUOTE ]

Those polls don't do anything but prove everyone on here has a penis between 0 and 12 inches /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, those polls do not neccesarily mean people on here support Kerry more than Bush, they simply state that people may be more liberal than conservative. Being liberal does not mean automatically that someone is a Democrat.

[Knockwurst]

GWB, you do have a sense of humor.

[Trainwreck]

Kerry the evil-doer, I mean flip flopper, I mean uh uh uh uh.....

>TW<

[riverflush]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the point on last night's debate: Kerry came across better, but it doesn't matter. All indicators so far is that it hasn't changed anything significantly re: who is in front in election 2004.

For that reason alone, Bush scores a tie. What he DIDN'T do was put Kerry out of his misery. Kerry hung in there and did a good job of speaking clearly and looking steady. I graded him a win last night...but that doesn't mean it's going to significantly change the race.

Those of you with the "Kerry crushed Bush, or Bush crushed Kerry" positions are really just spinning your hopes - it was MUCH closer, perhaps one of the better debates of the past 20 years.

Time will tell, but as of right now...no movement. See: Political Futures trading.

[vulturesrow]

Yeah I felt like Bush really didnt have to destroy Kerry here. He just needed to survive which he did more than adequately in my opinion. Bush did a pretty good job of not stepping on his crank which was all he really needed. An even stronger performance would have been gravy but not necessary.

[tolbiny]

The outcome of the debates isn't likely to be immediately felt... the undecidedes are undecided for a reason. What i think this debate did accomplish was to get people who were voting The "anybody but bush" ticket (ie me) to actually begin to look at Kerry as a good candidate on his own. This will help his turnout.
As the winner of the debate he will gain some of the undecideds who will now lean his way, a little momentum and and easier pickup of voters from the next debates. I spoke to one honestly independant voter (who went bush last time) and she said that she didn't realize how intelligant Kerry was, and she felt herslef leaning very slightly toward him. He still has a long way to go, but i think it was a small, but signifigant win for Kerry- he has a little momentum to build off of.

(of course if they capture Osama before the election it is over, there is no way bush can lose, he could bitch slap kerry's wife and still win in a walk)

[bdypdx]

cross post...

“Bush confidante Karen Hughes said: "On his face, you could see his irritation at the senator's misrepresentations. . . . He was answering the senator with his face."

Then watch the video on the national Democratic site thinking of the Karen Hughes quote.
http://www.democrats.org/

Enjoy,
bdy.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you with the "Kerry crushed Bush, or Bush crushed Kerry" positions are really just spinning your hopes - it was MUCH closer, perhaps one of the better debates of the past 20 years.

[/ QUOTE ] no, we are not spinning are "hopes", whatever the hell that means. I said Kery crushed Bush because he did just that. Those of you on the right, who are ardent Bush supporters, are trying to put a silver lining on an abysmal performance by Bush by calling it a tie. It wasn't even close.

This type of rhetoric reminds me of people who go see a bad movie, except when someone asks them how the movie was they say "it was alright" as opposed to saying it sucks, because they don't want to feel like they just wasted money seeing a terrible movie.

In regards to the debate last night, everytime Kerry spoke he came across clear and concise. Everytime Bush spoke I cringed and felt uneasy.

[IrishHand]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks this debate went strongly either way just doesn't understand debating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a lot of debate in high school and I think Kerry won convincingly. My point is not that this is so because I am a debater, just that your statement is bullshit. Try providing actual arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%. As another former debater, it wasn't even close. Of course, as many people have noted in this and other threads, winning or losing the debate is a much different analysis depending on if you're looking at it from a technical debate perspective or a political perspective. From the former, big Kerry win. From the latter, TBD - probably not until early November.

I was quite pleased though that it ended up being more "debate-like" than I expected when I read the rules.

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
of course if they capture Osama before the election it is over, there is no way bush can lose, he could bitch slap kerry's wife and still win in a walk)


[/ QUOTE ]

Quote of the week!

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
All indicators so far is that it hasn't changed anything significantly re: who is in front in election 2004.


[/ QUOTE ]

After fifteen hours?

Anyway, changing who is in front, especially within a short time frame, is a terrible criteria to judge whether anybody won a debate.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
of course if they capture Osama before the election it is over, there is no way bush can lose, he could bitch slap kerry's wife and still win in a walk)


[/ QUOTE ]

Quote of the week!

[/ QUOTE ]

Its probably true though, lol

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
I was quite pleased though that it ended up being more "debate-like" than I expected when I read the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes me too. There was a lot more substantive debate than I thought would occur. Also, there was definitly a lot more back and forth debate, I remember the last presidential debates, or the debates int he primary as being more a series of unrelated speeches than a debate.

[Nicholasp27]

btw, this was supposed to be bush's "strong point"

losing the debate on this doesn't bode well for future debates

[wacki]

What is the longest thread ever on 2+2? 79 posts in one day, wow!

[pokerjo22]

I voted that Bush won the debate. Kerry had everything to gain and nothing to lose. Bush had everything to lose and nothing to gain. I'd rather have Kerry as president, particularly after last nights performance. But I have to say that Bush did pretty well too when one makes allowances for him being a moron. So given that Bush didn't fu too bad I hand it to him.

[Knockwurst]

wacki, go check out the Chris Brown v. Paul Phillips debate going on at the WPT forum. That one's going to be tough to beat.

[wacki]

what the hell? A thread on scrabble got to 160?!?!??!?! This is a poker forum and the longest thread is about scrabble?

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Knockwurst]

[ QUOTE ]
what the hell? A thread on scrabble got to 160?!?!??!?! This is a poker forum and the longest thread is about scrabble?

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Read on at your peril. It devolves from scrabble to child rape and beyond. One of the strangest threads I've read in awhile.

[El Barto]

[ QUOTE ]
what the hell? A thread on scrabble got to 160?!?!??!?! This is a poker forum and the longest thread is about scrabble?

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many longer threads. Here is a thread about long 2+2 threads. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=1011744)

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks this debate went strongly either way just doesn't understand debating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a lot of debate in high school and I think Kerry won convincingly. My point is not that this is so because I am a debater, just that your statement is bullshit. Try providing actual arguments.

[/ QUOTE ]

No [censored]. I was an accomplished policy debater in high school as well and Kerry creamed Bush on style points and was the victor by a solid margin on the substantive axis.

[wacki]

Wow, I like the "women should take the 199-to-1 shot (or whatever number you choose) of being raped, rather than wait for another elevator? " and Diablo's "it is ridiculous to claim that it is reasonable to compare the likelihood of Paul raping your daugher to the likelihood of your cheating at online Scrabble.
".

Unbelieveable.

[wacki]

I agree, it's too bad you can win a debate without actually saying anything tangible.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
what the hell? A thread on scrabble got to 160?!?!??!?! This is a poker forum and the longest thread is about scrabble?

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Now I know why I don't venture over there much anymore. Good God!

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
I voted that Bush won the debate. Kerry had everything to gain and nothing to lose. Bush had everything to lose and nothing to gain. I'd rather have Kerry as president, particularly after last nights performance. But I have to say that Bush did pretty well too when one makes allowances for him being a moron. So given that Bush didn't fu too bad I hand it to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just stupid. The question quite simply is, who won the debate? Bush should not get a handicap for being a moron.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
This is just stupid. The question quite simply is, who won the debate? Bush should not get a handicap for being a moron.

[/ QUOTE ] LOL, I think she is saying he won because he wasn't as bad as he could have been, so because of that it is a win. I thought he was terrible, in fact worse than I thought he would be, but what do I know, I can't spell Tha or Cracka right.

[Knockwurst]

Yeah, but you still have the coolest avatar going. Hope when the game comes out you can provide us more clips on it.

[ThaSaltCracka]

dude, I jacked it from someone else.

here is a link to the official trailer: http://rockstargames.com/sanandreas/trailers/GTASA_TRAILER2_480x360.wmv

Haha, this has nothing to do with politics either!!!!! You damn political bastards!!!!!

[riverflush]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Those of you with the "Kerry crushed Bush, or Bush crushed Kerry" positions are really just spinning your hopes - it was MUCH closer, perhaps one of the better debates of the past 20 years.

[/ QUOTE ] no, we are not spinning are "hopes", whatever the hell that means. I said Kery crushed Bush because he did just that. Those of you on the right, who are ardent Bush supporters, are trying to put a silver lining on an abysmal performance by Bush by calling it a tie. It wasn't even close.

This type of rhetoric reminds me of people who go see a bad movie, except when someone asks them how the movie was they say "it was alright" as opposed to saying it sucks, because they don't want to feel like they just wasted money seeing a terrible movie.

In regards to the debate last night, everytime Kerry spoke he came across clear and concise. Everytime Bush spoke I cringed and felt uneasy.

[/ QUOTE ]


One suggestion SALT - read my f*****g posts before you mouth off about what I am or am not.

If you can't look at this from a "one step back" perspective and see it for what it was, YOU are the one who is "one of those people."

You're spinning.

Wake up. If you would have paid one bit of attention to ANY of my posts, you'll see exactly how I have followed this election - offering pros and cons of both campaign's tactics. I'm much more interested in the political science of this election season, and no matter who wins I'll still be living the same life.

You can take your "ardent Bush supporter" crap and shove it, with all due respect.

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ThaSaltCracka]

a little testy eh?

First of all, this is your second reply in this thread, I was responding to your first(and at that point your only reply), and I responded to your absurd claim that it was some how a tie.

Now, if you aren't a Bush supporter I apologize, but what you said was exactly the same bull [censored] every other known Bush supporter on here was saying about the debates. Nearly every single poll out today though shows Kerry crushed Bush, and the only people who think it was a tie are ardent Bush supporters looking for a silver lining.

If you still think it the debate was a tie and you are not a Bush supporter, maybe you need to change your analysis technique, because you are way off.

[Non_Comformist]

It seems that most believe that Kerry won and after thinking about it more last night and watching some of it again, it does seem that Bush's performance dropped off dramatically after the first 30 minutes last night and at times appeared tired and out of things to say. On a pure debate skill measure Kerry would then be the clear winner. However I think on a polictical level it is still a tie in the sense that I would not expect it to have an affect. If this same performance is repeated over the next two debates then I would think it could be a major turning point for Kerry.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
However I think on a polictical level it is still a tie in the sense that I would not expect it to have an affect.

[/ QUOTE ] Something I heard today. The person who won the first debate in the past 20 years has never been elected president. Modale won in 84, Dukakis in 88, Perot in 92, and Gore in 2000. Kerry needs more than just this victory to win.

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
Something I heard today. The person who won the first debate in the past 20 years has never been elected president. Modale won in 84, Dukakis in 88, Perot in 92, and Gore in 2000. Kerry needs more than just this victory to win.

[/ QUOTE ]You're leaving out the year which disrupts the trend. =]

[ThaSaltCracka]

oh, well 4 out 5 is good enough for me /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
CNN didn't say who won in 96, I assume it was Clinton.

[riverflush]

Yes, I'll admit to being a little testy. Today has been full of political rhetoric, most of it - on both sides - garbage.

This is what I said and I stick by it:

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry hung in there and did a good job of speaking clearly and looking steady. I graded him a win last night...but that doesn't mean it's going to significantly change the race.

[/ QUOTE ]

I DO NOT see this as the watershed moment for Kerry that all his supporters want it to be. He did well and I called it for what it was. He still made some mistakes - so did Bush. But you could make the argument that Bush won the first 40 minutes - when the majority of viewers were tuned in, while Kerry dominated the last part - when many had (presumptively) tuned out already.

It's too early to call this a huge gain for Kerry, especially when both the markets and exit polling found Bush's support remaining the same .

What I was saying is that it is possible for Kerry to score a win here and it not matter in the big picture.


I've stated many times that I truly don't have a candidate in this election. I'm a capitalist libertarian, which unfortunately to many liberals...makes me automatically right-wing - even if the label doesn't fit.

I vote for fiscally conservative candidates, regardless of the party. I supported Evan Bayh (Democrat) for many years while living in Indiana. Regardless of who wins, I live my life the same way.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
I DO NOT see this as the watershed moment for Kerry that all his supporters want it to be. He did well and I called it for what it was. He still made some mistakes - so did Bush. But you could make the argument that Bush won the first 40 minutes - when the majority of viewers were tuned in, while Kerry dominated the last part - when many had (presumptively) tuned out already.

It's too early to call this a huge gain for Kerry, especially when both the markets and exit polling found Bush's support remaining the same .

What I was saying is that it is possible for Kerry to score a win here and it not matter in the big picture.


[/ QUOTE ] I agree with you, but I think the momentum MAY be shifting over to the Kerry camp. He has to come strong in the next debate to really see a bounce.

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Gore's sighs. Gore's rolling of the eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd think Bush's handlers, given how they creamed Gore for this last time around, would have taught their boy not to smirk.

[ QUOTE ]
And most importantly, Gore's exaggerations and misstatements on many issues.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know you'll have a hard time digging these up again for me to refute them, but Gore really got reamed for taking credit for his own work, not exaggerating. That was the pure, shameless spin at work.

NT

[Non_Comformist]

I think the biggest outcome is that this gives Kerry a shot at winning the election where as if the roles had been reversed or Bush had a clear victory I don't Kerry would have been able to recover.

I am actually pretty dissapointed in Bush as he missed a number of opportunties to hit Kerry pretty hard. For example when Kerry talked about Soldiers not having body armor Bush should have retorted with Kerry's vote on the 87b, instead he waited until 2 segments later. That should have been obvious and an easy score. Additionally at one point Kerry spoke on his vision of the correct terms in which to go into Iraq, the center being a collation of Allies and Iraq being a more of a threat (I'm paraphrasing) Bush should and could have responded with Kerry's vote against the first Gulf war where both conditions where met and then mae the conclusion that Kerry does not have the resolve or ability to lead the country during a time of war.

Bush missed the opportunities and I'm not sure if he will get them again.

In the end I still have doubts as to whether or not Kerry is the type of democratic candidate that can be elected, Clinton/Kennedy he is not.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, I think she is saying he won because he wasn't as bad as he could have been, so because of that it is a win. I thought he was terrible, in fact worse than I thought he would be, but what do I know, I can't spell Tha or Cracka right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bush was worse than I thought he'd be too. However, I haven't seen him on tv much and people are telling me this is his pest performance ever. If so, WOW.

[pokerjo22]

How stupid our fearless leader can be:

http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/sovereignty.html

[BadBoyBenny]

Where is a message about a plan? His plan is to fix it?
Great.

Ok we blew it.
Ok we screwed the execution.
Ok we're going to fix it.

How?

[Trainwreck]

PERFORMANCE? AH that explains it..... hahahahha
What a total OIL MONEY BATHING IN DAILY UP TO HIS NECK RIDING DADDY'S COAT TAILS NEVER WON A GAME OF SCRABBLE IN HIS LIFE AND CORPORATE LOVING SCUMBAG....

I hope F 9/11 released for rental/sales on 10/5 makes a nice DENT as well.

The BUSH family is corrupt, what's next we accept Jeb as president?

END IT NOW please!

Wake up from your stupidity comas before it's too late!

I few other things:

OUTSOURCING

BENEFITS FOR ILLEGALS

Ridiculous policies, totally unacceptable!

>TW<

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
OUTSOURCING

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another 2+2 poster reveals a complete lack of understanding of basic economics.

[cjromero]

Kerry did say that preemption would still be available, but only if it first passed the infamous "global test", which I assume means that he wouldn't exercise it unless the UN approved. To me, part of the preemption doctrine is that the U.S. (or any other country) will go to war to protect its interests before a threat fully materializes, even if it necessary to do so unilaterally. Kerry clearly does not support that.

[Non_Comformist]

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry did say that preemption would still be available, but only if it first passed the infamous "global test", which I assume means that he wouldn't exercise it unless the UN approved. To me, part of the preemption doctrine is that the U.S. (or any other country) will go to war to protect its interests before a threat fully materializes, even if it necessary to do so unilaterally. Kerry clearly does not support that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to be ignorant when it comes the the "global test" so could someone please explain to me exactly what this means.

[emp1346]

i voted kerry won the debate. the reason why is that Bush didn't actually answer half the questions.

here's how i saw most of the evening going:

-"Mr President, what color is the White House?"
-"Well, Jim, there are many locations in this great country that I perform my duties in. From my ranch in Texas I have met with world leaders and developed policies integral to the success of our nation for example. The White House is only the location of my primary office."
-"Senator Kerry?"
-"Jim, it's white."

[Matty]

SNL Parody (http://interestingtimes.typepad.com/interesting_times/2004/10/snl_debate_paro.html#more)

[lastchance]

Kerry managed to hold himself strongly and strengthen a very, very weak position. He was able to dominate the last portion of the debate, as Bush kept saying the same points over and over again, while Kerry struck back with a few new points, such as "More of the same," and "I held one view on Iraq" (explains that view). He did not, however, give us an idea about what to do next. But simply because he managed to turn back Bush's attacks on his position, he comes out much better in the debate. Bush should have put Kerry away during this debate, especially after the first 30 minutes. He didn't. Bush had a major advantage on this issue going into this debate. That advantage slipped away during the debate. (well, he still has an edge, but just one not so big anymore).

[Matty]

[ QUOTE ]
He did not, however, give us an idea about what to do next.

[/ QUOTE ]Neither does Bush.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He did not, however, give us an idea about what to do next.

[/ QUOTE ]Neither does Bush.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you admit Kerry has no idea what to do next! Quite refreshing. In that case why do you want to replace President Bush?

Jimbo

[lastchance]

Easy answer, because he thinks Bush is more clueless.

But however, Bush did respond to the question about what are we going to do now in Iraq. He did say, "Let me first tell you that the best way for Iraq to be safe and secure is for Iraqi citizens to be trained to do the job.

And that‘s what we‘re doing. We‘ve got 100,000 trained now, 125,000 by the end of this year, 200,000 by the end of next year."

He also said that we will win because the Iraqis want to be free, and if we train the Iraqis, they will help themselves.

John Kerry pointed to johnkerry.com for his plan. He has said that he will internationalize and bring allies in to help, and he repeated that many times during the debate. But then, so has Bush.

Now, this is a very interesting point that was not touched on during the debate. At John Kerry's Iraq war plan site, he made one of his 4 points an idea about reconstruction in Iraq. If Kerry's plan is better than Bush, it will be based around his reconstruction effort. This is, IMHO, Bush's biggest weakness by far in Iraq.

I think Kerry should have touched on this, except I would not know how you can quickly rebuild in a situation as volatile as Iraq is. However, this clearly does need to be done, and the President has not spent enough time talking about this, and neither has Kerry, IMHO.

Other than that, Kerry's plan is the same as Bush, except he says he will execute his plan better than Bush has.

The security issue is also very interesting. Neither one of them has said much besides the fact that we do need to train Iraqi troops.

Both of them did not really offer the major specifics about their plans, which are both subject to change. Neither of them wanted to make a huge mistake here, and it is very easy to make a huge mistake on Iraq policy right now. However, this is an issue which must be addressed.

There are 5 main issues here, which are security, diplomacy (international), reconstruction, training, and the elections. I, personally, would love to hear more about these critical issues.

[Kenrick]

People can like Kerry over Bush for whatever reasons, but Iraq can't possibly be one of them since Kerry agreed with Bush the entire way until around last December when the polls showed maybe he should disagree. Kerry said during the debate that he also wouldn't leave until the job is finished and wants to commit more trooops, etc. The ONLY difference his plan has for Iraq is wanting to get more UN involvement. Well, duh. That all sounds good, but countries such as France have already said they won't help even if he is elected.

But that is beside the point anyway. The main point on this is that the UN sat on its ass for ten years about Saddam and Iraq. The UN is worthless and everyone knows it. And those who don't know it should pay attention. The United States of America shouldn't and doesn't need international approval to protect itself and do what it thinks is right. A lot of people are missing that. The world is a dangerous place, and wanting to all sing Koombaya together sounds good but won't happen.

It's no wonder Bush looked a bit uneasy during the debate. I'm surprised he didn't go over to the other podium and punch Kerry in the face for telling lies and putting his candidacy and politics above what is best for the country. The Democratic Party could have put up a candidate that would be good for the country. Kerry is not that candidate. What is his campaign besides "Bush bad"? He doesn't have one. That's all James Carville can get him to do. The presentation was good, but it must be hard to win a debate when you yourself aren't sure what you stand for.

The guy's love of the UN and supposed faith in other countries is seriously troublesome, and I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people who don't realize how scary his ideas are have either never been in the military, are younger, or haven't paid attention to government policies for very long. I'd rather have Al Gore in the White House than Kerry, and thinking back to 9/11, having Al Gore in the White House would have made me very nervous.

Anyway, like one candidate over the other for whatever reasons, but Iraq policy can't possibly be one of those reasons since they both had the same ideas the whole way.

[Kenrick]

People can like Kerry over Bush for whatever reasons, but Iraq can't possibly be one of them since Kerry agreed with Bush the entire way until around last December when the polls showed maybe he should disagree. Kerry said during the debate that he also wouldn't leave until the job is finished and wants to commit more trooops, etc. The ONLY difference his plan has for Iraq is wanting to get more UN involvement. Well, duh. That all sounds good, but countries such as France have already said they won't help even if he is elected.

But that is beside the point anyway. The main point on this is that the UN sat on its ass for ten years about Saddam and Iraq. The UN is worthless and everyone knows it. And those who don't know it should pay attention. The United States of America shouldn't and doesn't need international approval to protect itself and do what it thinks is right. A lot of people are missing that. The world is a dangerous place, and wanting to all sing Koombaya together sounds good but won't happen.

It's no wonder Bush looked a bit uneasy during the debate. I'm surprised he didn't go over to the other podium and punch Kerry in the face for telling lies and putting his candidacy and politics above what is best for the country. The Democratic Party could have put up a candidate that would be good for the country. Kerry is not that candidate. What is his campaign besides "Bush bad"? He doesn't have one. That's all James Carville can get him to do. The presentation was good, but it must be hard to win a debate when you yourself aren't sure what you stand for.

The guy's love of the UN and supposed faith in other countries is seriously troublesome, and I'd hazard a guess that a lot of people who don't realize how scary his ideas are have either never been in the military, are younger, or haven't paid attention to government policies for very long. I'd rather have Al Gore in the White House than Kerry, and thinking back to 9/11, having Al Gore in the White House would have made me very nervous.

Anyway, like one candidate over the other for whatever reasons, but Iraq policy can't possibly be one of those reasons since they both had the same ideas the whole way.