Question about how to play JJ preflop, and on the flop.

[kipin]

Hello,

While I am a new poster to the forum, I have been reading the boards for awhile. I play mostly 10+1 and 20+2 SNG's on Stars, and recently encountered somewhat of an interesting hand. (Atleast I thought it was interesting)

Blinds are 25/50 Hero is on the BB holding J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif.

UTG+1 min raises to 100, action is folded to hero. Hero calls for 50 more.

At the start of the hand, chip counts are:
Hero has 1385 chips.
UTG+1 has me covered (1775 chips).

Flop comes 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I lead out for 200, UTG+1 raises 700 to 900. I think for a minute and push for the rest of my stack (385 more). UTG+1 calls.

My question is, what percentage of hands do I beat, and what percentage of hands do I not beat? And how would you play this both preflop, and on the flop?

The more I think about this hand, the more I think it was a terrible push, but the typical range of hands players minimum raise are 2 highcards, so I was thinking I was ahead on the flop.

Results in white below:

<font color="white">
hero : shows [Jd Jc] (a pair of Jacks)

Seat 6: UTG+1 showed [5s 5c] and won (2795) with three of a kind, Fives </font>

Thanks in advance for any responses.
-kipin

[VTDuffman]

I'm new too, so take my advice for what it's worth (which is not much). The PF min raise to me, even in EP of a small pair, 7-7 or lower. The HUGE raise post flop tells me that he hit a set or is bluffing his rocks off...

Depending on reads, and not really drawing to anything (backdoor flush maybe)...I fold and live to fight another hand.

PS - I hate JJ, it's my cursed hand. I always lose with it and I always get beaten by it. I'd rather have TT than JJ. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Gator]

I like this hand – because with hindsight, we can dissect each move and find out what alternative strategies would have yielded.

First, let’s look at hand as it played out.
The initial mini raise basically says I (55) have a hand I’d like to see the flop with – this could be anything (i.e. small pair, AQ, KJs, AA or KK hoping to reduce but not eliminate the field)
Your call basically says the same thing to the raiser.
Your post flop bet says one of three things:
&amp;#61550; I got a decent piece of the flop
&amp;#61550; I think you (Mr. PF raiser) missed with your AJ, AK type hand and I’m going to take a stab at the pot
&amp;#61550; I have an overpair
&amp;#61550; I have a strong draw
Because you send a mixed message here, you don’t really know what his reraise means. It could be
&amp;#61550; I think you're bluffing and I’m coming over the top or
&amp;#61550; I’m the one with the monster and I don’t want you drawing

I’m a proponent of limping with JJ early provided it’s a multi-way pot. You said the action was folded to you, but you didn’t mention how many players are left to act after you. Assuming few, this is a time to reraise preflop (I suggest to $300 - $400). If pf raiser called, he certainly isn’t calling for set value, he’s calling because he puts you on AK – your pf reraise bet should induce enough folds to offset the risk. I’d be willing to let go if reraised at that point (because mini raise followed by re-reraise is the way aces and kings are played). So, that bet might have won the pot.

Not having raised, I think check the flop. An initial preflop raise doesn’t mean much – so reraising can sometimes be a bluff. A call is often an indicator of strength. Had you checked, he might have slowplayed (which may cost you, because you have to bet the turn and the same thing might play out). Had he bet the flop and you called – well your call shows strength. Thus, if he again leads out on the turn, at that point you can put him on a hand.

It’s a delicate balancing act because neither of you have enough chips to fully communicate – so you must maximize the exchange of information. Thus, the exchange starting with your post flop raise leads to a reraise which may or may not indicate strength – thus it’s a wasted communiqué that needs to be short cut.

Looking back (with knowledge of hand results) – a reraise preflop by you would have been followed by a call, a fold or a rereraise and would have provided value added info or won the pot.
Post flop – having opponent respond to your call (vs. pf raise) also shows strength

You might have lost $300 chips preflop (if you raised and opponent puts you on AK and comes over top) or you might have won pot there
Post flop, your check may have led opponent to go all in (in which case you fold wondering if you are laying down the best hand) – on the other hand, it might have led opponent to mini bet – you call (showing strength) and you can somewhat safely interpret a large turn bet as a powerful hand.

[kipin]

Gator,

I should have mentioned but there are 8 players left in the SNG (one busted).

You said the action was folded to you, but you didn’t mention how many players are left to act after you.

I mentioned I was on the BB. UTG folded and UTG+1 raised, after the raise, the rest of the table folded and the action was on me.

It is interesting to note, that after we were all-in, the turn came A/images/graemlins/heart.gif If I had checked, and he had waited until the turn to bet (slowplaying and checking behind), it would have been a very easy hand to get away from. Although the chances of him checking a set on a dangerous board such as that flop in my opinion would be slim to none.

Thanks for your response, it was interesting to see your interpretation of all the possibilities of the hand.

One thing I have noticed, when I play large PP's preflop passively, it seems to get me into trouble when the flop is all undercards. Do you have the same feeling on this?

-kipin

[Gator]

So from the big blind, you know it's head to head - a large preflop raise is in order -- you are ahead of 80% of the hands you put him on with his mini raise - AK AQs, smaller pair, KQs, raise enough so that you inspire KK and AA to come over the top and so that small pairs are inspired to fold

[BigJohn043]

Your big mistake here is not raising pre flop. JJ is a very strong hand, particularly heads up. But it doesn't play well after the flop so it is a hand that you would like to win the pot before the flop, particularly out of position.

I take the preflop min raise to mean that the guy is an idiot. He could have absolutely anything. I think you need to reraise to at least 300 and make him pay to see the flop.

That being said you did a weak call and then you a see a coordinated flop of undercards. I actually like the 200 bet here. When he comes bank over the top you are in real trouble.

Part of the problem is because you didn't define the hand with a preflop reraise you have no idea what he has. He could have a flush draw, a straight draw, a made straight, a set or even an overpair.

I you had reraised on the flop you would have a lot better data. Any type of straight draw or made straight would be unlikely. Any overpair higher than JJ would have reraised you again preflop so you could rule that out. You would also have been the preflop aggressor so a raise over the top on the flop would have been a much stronger move and indicated that he was willing to put all of this chips in the middle.

I think given the way you played it you have to fold. You still have lots of chips left and given the wide range of hands that could have you beat there has to be a better time...