cold call KQ?

[schwza]

ordinarily, i'd cock-punch myself before i cold called a raise with KQo, but i thought that here it would alright.

first, the PFR has a small stack, only 23 bb's. when the blinds fold, there are 5 bb in the pot, he only has 21 bb behind, which strikes me as a time when having KQ is alright. i'm happy to get all-in with TP2K here.

second, the CO has been min-raising a lot of pots. makes me think it's more likely i have him dominated than the other way around.

third, i'll have position. duh.

on the downside, if either blind reraises, i'll have thrown $8 away without seeing the flop.

on the flop i made my standard "that's a pretty low flop so i don't think it hit you [and you would have bet most overpairs], and even though it should be pretty clear it didn't hit me either, i'm betting" bet. i'm more interested in talking about the pre-flop play, but comments on the flop are welcome too.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

Hero ($248.60)
SB ($202)
BB ($302.40)
UTG ($235.80)
MP ($646.28)
CO ($91.80)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $8, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($22) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: $42
<font color="green">Main Pot: $22, won by Hero.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: $20, returned to Hero.</font>

[Tilt]

My two cents are worth just that, but anyway...

Without knowing exactly how often he has been min raising, or what your table image is, I don't like the call KQo. If he check raises that flop you are lost.

That being said, is he min raising 20% of the time? Have you been noticeably tight pre-flop up until that point? Then I agree with the call as a way to check his aggressiveness and capitalize on your table image. That sounds like what you were doing here.

It would have been interesting to see how the action would have gone with paint on the flop but he still checks.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
My two cents are worth just that, but anyway...

Without knowing exactly how often he has been min raising, or what your table image is, I don't like the call KQo. If he check raises that flop you are lost.

That being said, is he min raising 20% of the time? Have you been noticeably tight pre-flop up until that point?



[/ QUOTE ]

i couldn't give you numbers, but i've seen him min-raise weaker K's and Q's and hands like A6. i don't remember the hands leading up to this point, but i'm sure that i was cold-calling very rarely, 3betting fairly rarely, and raising in unraised pots quite a bit. and limping occasionally.

[ QUOTE ]

It would have been interesting to see how the action would have gone with paint on the flop but he still checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jxx - i bet, fold to any c/r
Qxx / Kxx - i bet, push to any c/r
AKx / AQx - i check behind and play to keep the pot small (fold to a 1/2 pot or bigger turn bet), pray to hit 5-outer
Axx - bet, fold to c/r

"fold to c/r" also includes shutting down if i miss. and yes, if he had c/r'd i'd have (obviously) folded.

[AlmightyJay]

Stupid question from a NL n00b -

If he called your flop bet, what do you do on the turn if a blank falls? What about a Q or K?

[bobman0330]

I love this play. It makes me very, very happy. By challenging a stale piece of poker conventional wisdom, you have materially advanced the state of poker knowledge.

At a 6-handed table, you can't play as if you were at a full ring. And even if you could, KQ is still a hand that can be played profitably against mediocre opposition. They'll let you know when they have AK/AQ, and you can get out of the way. And even if that weren't true either. If you're going to let someone push you off a hand as strong as KQ with position for two times the BB, you need to get away from 6-handed tables as fast as you can run. I'd advocate playing a huge range of hands in position against someone who's min-raising very frequently just for the value you get out of picking up the pot when rags flop. When the money's shallow, you have to make a stand here

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]
At a 6-handed table, you can't play as if you were at a full ring. And even if you could, KQ is still a hand that can be played profitably against mediocre opposition. They'll let you know when they have AK/AQ, and you can get out of the way. And even if that weren't true either. If you're going to let someone push you off a hand as strong as KQ with position for two times the BB, you need to get away from 6-handed tables as fast as you can run. I'd advocate playing a huge range of hands in position against someone who's min-raising very frequently just for the value you get out of picking up the pot when rags flop. When the money's shallow, you have to make a stand here

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like you take it too far. You can do this occasionally when you suspect your play will be respected. Do this once or twice too often, however, and you will encourage others to tighten up and then call you to the river when they do play a hand. That may reduce the profitability of the table. Or you can turn a table into maniacsville which can be uncomfortable and more difficult to read.

I think you have to maintain your tight-aggressive image and pick your spots, as schwza did here. The beauty of this play in these game conditions is that Schwza profits form play in future rounds. If he loses the pot to a check raise or flop bet, his opponent will think he is looser and weaker than he is. He can exploit this later on. Or he wins the pot, as he did, and later when he cold calls with a stronger hand his opponent will be more likely to call this same flop bet with a weaker hand. He is not only winning a hand here, he influencing the table conditions favorably for future deals.

[Tilt]

[ QUOTE ]

Jxx - i bet, fold to any c/r
Qxx / Kxx - i bet, push to any c/r
AKx / AQx - i check behind and play to keep the pot small (fold to a 1/2 pot or bigger turn bet), pray to hit 5-outer
Axx - bet, fold to c/r

"fold to c/r" also includes shutting down if i miss. and yes, if he had c/r'd i'd have (obviously) folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suggests you think hes raising with an AXs. I agree with your plays, though I might check the Jack and fold to a pot sized bet since I think AJ and JTs are possible hands here. But thats probably not the right play (and probably why I avoid players like you when I can).

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Stupid question from a NL n00b -

If he called your flop bet, what do you do on the turn if a blank falls? What about a Q or K?

[/ QUOTE ]

if a K or Q hits, i'll bet. the stacks are shallow enough that i'm willing to get all in here with a modest hand. i don't want to give a free card to a flush draw, a gutshot, or a smaller pair.

if a blank hits, i'll check behind. at that point i'll have to believe it's likely he'll call a turn bet, either wtih a good draw or with a hand that beats mine. i've found that firing a second barrel is rarely effective. (the most embarassing possibility is that i bet the turn, he calls with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifx /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, the river goes check-check and he takes it down).

checking the turn also gives me the chance to hit a pair on the river. if it's a 3rd /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, i'll definitely check behind. the dream is that villain misses a c/r on the turn and then a 4th /images/graemlins/diamond.gif gives me a higher flush on the river. it's spots like that that i'm tempted to type "no turn c/r for you - hahaha" (but don't).

[CheckFold]

Maybe I'm just a fish who is bound to get my wake-up call any minute now, but I can't even imagine laying down KQo to an open min raise from the CO in a party 6 max NL game. Granted I only play in the $100 games but in those games a raise in that spot could represent literally any two cards. I think reraising here is overly aggressive and folding is out of the question.

As a general observation, many of the posts on this forum seem to give the party 6 max NL players WAY too much credit. I often wonder if I'm playing in the same games being talked about here. I'm calling this KQo every time and if a K or Q hits I think I'm good ~90% of the time. Is there any merit to any of this?