1st Hand, A Q-suited: Who Makes This Call Preflop?

[Desdia72]

after limping from lp, i'm now facing a raise and two cold callers. who bites the bullet and spends the chips?
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PokerStars Game #732452021: Tournament #2852555, Hold'em No Limit - Level I
(10/20) - 2004/09/30 - 12:51:24 (ET)
Table '2852555 1' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ie2210 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: TiltedBrim (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: surfacing09 (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: Jennifer_25 (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: stormyeyesC (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: grahan (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: atomicmom (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: ranncid (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: ReighnStorm (1500 in chips)
TiltedBrim: posts small blind 10
surfacing09: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ReighnStorm [Qh Ah]
Jennifer_25: calls 20
stormyeyesC: calls 20
grahan: folds
atomicmom: folds
ranncid: folds
ReighnStorm: calls 20
ie2210: folds
TiltedBrim: raises 120 to 140
surfacing09: folds
Jennifer_25: calls 120
stormyeyesC: calls 120
ReighnStorm: folds
*** FLOP *** [Td 7s As]
TiltedBrim: checks
Jennifer_25: bets 140
stormyeyesC: calls 140
TiltedBrim: calls 140
*** TURN *** [Td 7s As] [Jc]
TiltedBrim: checks
Jennifer_25: bets 300
stormyeyesC: calls 300
TiltedBrim: calls 300
*** RIVER *** [Td 7s As Jc] [8s]
TiltedBrim: checks
Jennifer_25: checks
stormyeyesC: bets 240
TiltedBrim: folds
Jennifer_25: calls 240
*** SHOW DOWN ***
stormyeyesC: shows [9h Qs] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
TiltedBrim said, "KK"
Jennifer_25: shows [Ac Ts] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
stormyeyesC collected 2260 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2260 | Rake 0
Board [Td 7s As Jc 8s]
Seat 1: ie2210 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: TiltedBrim (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 3: surfacing09 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Jennifer_25 showed [Ac Ts] and lost with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 5: stormyeyesC showed [9h Qs] and won (2260) with a straight, Eight to
Queen
Seat 6: grahan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: atomicmom folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: ranncid folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: ReighnStorm folded before Flop

[nuclear500]

Well your first huge problem was limping with the suited AQ in late position. The Kings may have reraised it regardless of your action, putting you on a late position steal when everyone limped, the Q9 would have never seen it and the AT may or may not have called.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Well your first huge problem was limping with the suited AQ in late position. The Kings may have reraised it regardless of your action, putting you on a late position steal when everyone limped, the Q9 would have never seen it and the AT may or may not have called.

[/ QUOTE ]

so in other words, i end up losing more money by raising. i feel A Q is a good hand to have in lp, even better when it's suited; however, against a field of multiple limpers, i felt it was best to limp with about two others to act. obviously, the raise and two cold calls let me know where i stood.

[SmileyEH]

raise preflop in that position, and in low buy in NL tourneys its not even close.

EP in higher buyins a limp is best in my opinion. Raising defines your hand and lets you know where you stand (seeing a late position raise and a couple callers does NOT).

-SmileyEH

[poboy]

Only a true fish makes this call that early in the tourny. As for raising this pf, that is the worst advice I've ever seen on this board. Why anyone would want to risk a good portion of their stack with a hand like AQ this early is beyond me.

[SmileyEH]

Could you explain why raising AQs in LP with two limpers to you is the "worst advice ever seen on this board"?

-SmileyEH

[codewarrior]

What it the buy-in?

[poboy]

Ok. Let's try it your way. Hero raises to let's say T120, as you said you're trying to thin the field anything less won't do this. Player holding KK either re-raises(if he's smart) or flat calls hoping to trap the other two limpers. If he raises what do you do now? Do you continue on? Do you invest more of your stack with a hand that is likely to be dominated or at best a coinflip? You've now pissed off over 1/8 of your stack, keep in mind how early it is in this tourny. Let's say he flat calls and the other two come along for the ride(which they did), now you catch a piece of the flop and lose even more. How is this profitable? AQ is a good hand not a premium hand, and therefore does not deserve a raise. It's a hand I love to see a flop with if it's cheap, otherwise it may as well be 72o. Perhaps calling it the "worst advice I'd ever seen" was a little over the top, but it is certainly bad advice.

[SmileyEH]

In the early stages of a SNG it is very much like a cash game.

You are telling me you only play AK and 22-AA.

right.

I don't feel any need to convince you otherwise, because your reasoning is horribly flawed.

BTW, if you are sitting UTG with AQs with a 10 person field you will be domitated about 20% of the time...this number falls the later your position (given limps + folds in front of you). Thats a risk I (and my post flop play) are willing to take.

-SmileyeH

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
In the early stages of a SNG it is very much like a cash game.

You are telling me you only play AK and 22-AA.

right.



[/ QUOTE ]

In a raised pot ,yes I only play premium hands early on(what a dumb idea that is). There's a big difference between limping in with AQ,KQ,AJ and other "pretty" hands and calling over 10% of your stack to play them.

BTW if you call into a raised pot with AQ there is a much greater chance that you are at best a coinflip and at worst dominated, which is what I said in my last post if you had bothered to read it. I don't know about you but I don't need coinflips that early in the game(w/ my post flop play).

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
What it the buy-in?

[/ QUOTE ]

the buy-in is $5 + $.50 so you know these are'nt the most brightest players in the poker world. a lp raise on the first hand of the SNG at this level does'nt announce anything. with the blinds this low, players are willing to call 60/80/100 raises with less than premium hands just to catch something. i was playing in a 2-table SNG the other day with A Q-suited in lp and raised pf with two callers. the flop hit Q Q 7. the guy to my left bet strong into the pot, the other caller to his left reraised him, and i'm like, "what the hell is going on?" seeing as how i had both of them covered, i go over the top all-in. the guy to my left calls and the caller to his left calls. the guy to my left turns over 7 7 for a fullhouse on the flop and the other guy turns over Q 4o. a 4 hits on the turn and the river is an x card giving the guy with Q 4o the nut fullhouse and bouncing the guy with 7 7 out of the SNG altogether. the guy called a preflop raise with Q 4o and ended up beating both of us. his explaination, "you gotta take chances".

[SmileyEH]

the question was whether to raise with AQs not to call a raise with it.

-SmileyEH

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
the question was whether to raise with AQs not to call a raise with it.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

no, the question was who calls this raise preflop with A Qs?

[lastchance]

You really can't call this here. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. I call with 22, here, but not AQ. The problem is when you hit AQ most of the time, you only have top pair or the nut flush draw.

I just think the call gets you into trouble too many times for it to be profitable.

[Jason Strasser]

My god!!!!

Save me!!! Without sounding like a snob, some of the stuff said here makes me sick.

1) There is no RULE that you must raise AQs here. There is no rule that you have to do anything, welcome to Poker. The 10xBB rule, well thats a guideline really. Heck you can bluff into a blindside pot for all I care. The key is that you can reason through with your move, and you can explain why it works. Hopefully your explanation makes sense.

I personally raise AQs here in the 200 sngs I play. That is because:

1) I generally do not respect limpers in this game with low blinds.

2) I have absolutely no problems letting this hand go on the flop, confident that the players who called my raise preflop were probably making a mistake calling my raise.

3) People rarely limp raise, and if they do I can throw my hand away easily.

However, I also limp AQo in my game. Why?

1) It has less value than AQs, and I feel like I make more money on this type of hand when an ace flops and a weaker ace pays me off in (usually) a small pot.

2) Limping with AQo can be deceiving. Sometimes moves like that, and limping with a hand like JJ can throw off some players who think.

3) I generally am much more comfortable playing a big pot when I have a hand like AQs which can make a lot of strong hands (like a flush), versus AQo which is just two high cards.

This whole AQ debate has taken place here before. I tend to hop on different sides of the fence, because there are good arguments either way.

But plainly saying, "You are an idiot for not raising this hand, you know better," is ignorant.

-Jason

P.S. In a 5$ buy in with weak players, I think a much stronger argument can be made for raising preflop. However, I think there are also counter arguments for calling. Heck, there are probably very strong arguments for even limp raising. Truthfully, I dont know a whole lot about 5 dolla sngs.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
My god!!!!

Save me!!! Without sounding like a snob, some of the stuff said here makes me sick.

1) There is no RULE that you must raise AQs here. There is no rule that you have to do anything, welcome to Poker. The 10xBB rule, well thats a guideline really. Heck you can bluff into a blindside pot for all I care. The key is that you can reason through with your move, and you can explain why it works. Hopefully your explanation makes sense.

I personally raise AQs here in the 200 sngs I play. That is because:

1) I generally do not respect limpers in this game with low blinds.

2) I have absolutely no problems letting this hand go on the flop, confident that the players who called my raise preflop were probably making a mistake calling my raise.

3) People rarely limp raise, and if they do I can throw my hand away easily.

However, I also limp AQo in my game. Why?

1) It has less value than AQs, and I feel like I make more money on this type of hand when an ace flops and a weaker ace pays me off in (usually) a small pot.

2) Limping with AQo can be deceiving. Sometimes moves like that, and limping with a hand like JJ can throw off some players who think.

3) I generally am much more comfortable playing a big pot when I have a hand like AQs which can make a lot of strong hands (like a flush), versus AQo which is just two high cards.

This whole AQ debate has taken place here before. I tend to hop on different sides of the fence, because there are good arguments either way.

But plainly saying, "You are an idiot for not raising this hand, you know better," is ignorant.

-Jason

P.S. In a 5$ buy in with weak players, I think a much stronger argument can be made for raising preflop. However, I think there are also counter arguments for calling. Heck, there are probably very strong arguments for even limp raising. Truthfully, I dont know a whole lot about 5 dolla sngs.

[/ QUOTE ]

a spirited and insightful post.