Tunica $40-$80 Hand

I was playing in a $40-$80 side game at the Horseshoe in Tunica, Mississippi last week and would like some opinions about the following hand.


I am in the small blind with the As-8s. The cutoff open limps. The cutoff is a loose, calling type player. The button, a solid player who usually plays pot limit, raises. I call. The big blind and the cutoff call. There is $320 in the pot and four players.


The flop is: Ah-Ad-3c


It is checked to the button who bets. Everyone calls. There is $480 in the pot.


The turn is: Jd


I bet and only the cutoff calls. There is $640 in the pot and two players.


The river is: 9d


I bet and the cutoff calls. The cutoff wins an $800 pot having the 7d-3d for a runner-runner flush.


Should I have check-raised on the flop? I felt that unless someone happen to have the case ace, my hand was strong enough to slowplay given the rainbow, raggedy board. However, based on the results, a check-raise might have folded the cutoff who would have been forced to call two bets cold to play his bottom pair-backdoor draw. Do I want players with backdoor draws out of the hand on the flop?

A bad beat for you Jim. Raising on that flop loses you between 0.5 and 1 BB. On the flop you're either far ahead or way behind. If ahead, your hand is strong enough that you don't need to push people off the pot. If behind, raising loses you at least one small bet more.


The guy followed a 24:1 dog, paying an extra 0.7BB on average to win 0.32BB on average, net loss a third of a big bet. You already had him where you wanted him just by calling.

Dear Jim,


Preflop, the button raise is screaming isolation raise. I three bet here with A8s and play it like the best hand, until shown otherwise. Getting the big blind out has advantages and so does shaking out the limper or making him pay. If your read differs from this, I will accept your onsite opinion.



After the flop, I like the way you played it. Check raising the flop might be ok if you had been tricky in the recent past and your opponents knew it. Or if you were going to be tricky in the future. But unlikely in isolation. You only checkraise if you think you will get unreasonable action from worse hands (or some other reasons), not to get a cheesburger backdoor draw out.



Would you call the river against this player if he raised? A crying call seems in order, but someone like this player seems to be, might be the exception.


regards

A8s from the small blind is a very difficult hand to play in any situation esp. a raised pot. I think there are rather compelling reasons to justify folding before the flop. I can probably give you equally compelling reasons to call and even reraise BTF. Usually with this type of hand I will probably fold BTF, but the fact that a player limps in the cutoff and then a probably overly aggressive pot-limit player raises certainly might get me to call. On the flop I prefer to check-raise, find out where I am, and seize the initiative, and play accordingly. I guess I sound wishy-washy because there probably is no clear consensus as to the proper play of this hand.


Bruce

yes, you do want him to draw


you would like to play that 1,000 times


this one time just didn't work out!!!!

I think you're right that this is a strong enough hand to slowplay considering the lack of draws out there and the fact that you're either way ahead or way behind.


Worrying about eliminating backdoor draws is so far off my radar screen that I'm not even sure how to address it.

C'Mon Jim I know you Know better then to ask this question, you'r just pissed about the beat ;)


Seriously, I would have played the hand a bit differently, but not much.


We can go step by step:


Preflop: I would re-raise for a couple of reasons. It seems like an isolation raise the way you describe the button. I want to be able to play my blinds in the future, so I reraise here, and if the hand gets shown down, he will know what I was doing--it will slow him down from raising trash on his button (which hurts your ability to play your blind). Furthermore, There is a reasonable chance that he is raising with an A (not in this case obviously--but in general). If he is, it makes it that much less likely for you to hit one. In these cases, I want to steal the pot on the flop or the turn. I also dont really feel like giving the BB a great price to call. Think about it, you are getting dead money from the limper and BB (if your reraise gets them to fold), and you are playing heads up with a guy that probably raised a hand worse than yours, and you become the agressor.


On the flop: If you had raised here, this would be a bad situation, you would likely have to bet so you would have earned less here--but that is just results oriented. In your case, I think a check is fine. If it is checked around, it will look like you are trying to buy it on the turn. Once the Button bets, I am torn. I might raise. Not because I am afraid of a backdoor draw, I am thrilled for someone to try for that, but just becuase there is no assurance i am going to get anymore action anyway. In this case the 7-3 called, but what if he had 7-3s, he would likely fold anyway. In that case, I figure the button is done with this hand anyway, so raising here does not really hurt me.


Still I think a slow play is fine here.


On the turn:


I would be inclined to try for the check raise. Yes in this case I might have given a free card to beat me BUT . . .


Think about this. You slowplayyed getting no more $$$ on the flop. You bet out on the turn, the button folded so no more $$$ from him. 4 out of 5 times the limper will not improve his flush draw and old as well, so you would get nothing from him either. By checking you encourage the button to bluff again, and then you can raise (here you probably lose the pot anyway).


It just seems that in this case you maxed potential profit in the turn BECAUSE he picked up a draw to beat you (which in fact beat you). In the more likely situation that he does not pick up a draw, you get nothing from your slowplay. Interestingly, once the limper made the terrible preflop, and flop call he probably had odds to hit his 4-1 flush draw on the river, so his call here is fine.


On the river I bet also--no question about it. not much to say here.


i hope this made sense. Basically I am saying, the way you played it is fine, but I am not sure you set yourself up for the correct risk reward. Betting out the flop scream I HAVE NO ACE to the button. The cutoff will call anyway, and you lose the button which is fine anyway.


Obviously in spite of it all you played well, and simply took a bad beat.

I don't think your losing any EV by folding preflop with this hand in most situations. If you reraise and you can eliminate the limper your hand becomes much easier to play. Hopefully with your image and if you both don't flop anything you'll win on the flop. The difficulties begin if you don't flop anything and your opponent calls on the flop. How do you proceed now? Does he have a real hand or is he playing mind games with you and attempting to resteal from you? You have a very marginal hand to begin with and you are out of position with it. If you reraise and the limper calls your hand now becomes very difficult to play. So I really don't think you are giving up much by passing to begin with. Why not wait till you have position on the aggressive player?


Bruce

Bruce said: "So I really don't think you are giving up much by passing to begin with. Why not wait till you have position on the aggressive player?"


I would not even consider passing here. You have half a small bet in, I would definatly play a suited Ace in the blind 3 handed with a single raise. Another reason (longer term) that I like raising rather then waiting until I have position on the aggressor, is that i want to be able to play my blinds in the future. You hate to be forced to keep dumping your blinds to a button raise. If you start re-raising in the SB you get the added liklihood of playing heads up. In this case it is likely that the button has a hand worse then yours. And, you will be representing a hand greater than you actually have. This is the time to be aggressive against the button. It will slow him down in future hands so that you can play your blinds without undue interference.


In short, I think you give up a lot playing passively in the blinds (by calling or worse folding) against an overly aggressive button.

I don't think a call or reraise is mandatory, but against an overly aggressive button who seems to raise every time, I have no problem reraising with A8s or a lot of other hands if I choose to play. I will not allow the button to raise everytime. So yes, I do agree with reraising, but I still don't think Axs is a mandatory play in the SB.


Bruce

First of all, welcome back! We've missed you.


Check out Tommy Angelo's results disease post. I don't remember which forum it's on.


I never slow-play unless the flop is perfect. This flop was pretty close to perfect (rainbow, raggedy as you put it). The only worry would be an inside baby straight draw, and that only from the big blind.


I think you do want players with backdoor draws in here. Maybe they'll catch a king or queen to go with one in their hand. Maybe they'll hit while you fill up. I can think of a lot more good things happening by trapping here than bad things. In this case, the guy would have to have the 3d or 3h and then catch two running diamonds or hearts. Maybe you raise and knock him out and then another 3 comes on the turn.


Next time make sure the river is the 8d.


I agree with your call pre-flop.

Why does no one want to CR the flop? I think CR'ing the flop when you do have the goods here is going to help you steal more pots with a CR in similar situations when you don't flop anything.


This might not be as much a consideration here, since Jim (I assume) is not trying to establish a long term image with players with whom he will frequently play. But still, if you do pick up the pot when you CR the flop, then that is a green light to occasionally CR the flop in similar situations when you flop nothing.


As a final observation, one of the standard criteria for a slowplay is not met here, namely the pot is not small.

Preflop: I rather favor folding here, but I can see playing the hand sometimes too...mostly depending upon the opposition.


On the flop I can't see any productive purpose to check-raising the button's bet. Whom would you be trying to knock out? Most likely, your hopefully paying customers if they should hit a good overcard. You might also be up against a better hand.


The pot is small enough still that you needn't worry about two-outers hitting against you, and the pot is not yet big enough for you to be reluctant for them to chase runner-runner draws. You would like for them to. If they do chase runner-runners, their actions are further suspect and ill-advised, since besides not receiving proper odds, they are assuming the added liability of sometimes making their hands when you also fill up.

Why not just bet the hand out. You called a cold raise in the small blind, so they've got to figure you for an ace or a pocket pair. Nobody between you and the raiser is going to call (or raise) without a real hand, because they will fear getting trapped for multiple bets by the raiser on button. If the guy with a pair of threes decides to call anyway then you will probably lose the pot, but he is a fish and you will get his money eventually.


Furthermore betting a big hand like this out will gain some respect for the times you decide to bluff or bet out weak hands up front, when you don't want a call.


If you do decide to check raise, thats not a terrible play either. It will look like you are trying to protect a vunerable hand (like 55), and you might get unwarranted action from other pocket pairs. But, being out of position you might just get yourself moved off a winner if you end up with 3 opponents, and they read you as weak. Say the guy with 3-7s semibluff three bets it, and the guy on the button with pocket jacks caps it, now what do you do?

The player in the cutoff didn't do so hot. Are you mad you slowplayed to let him pay 1 bet into a 10 bet pot on a 30-1 shot? This is not a reason to doubt your play.


If you are doubting your play becase you gave the bettor with a pocket pair a free chance to make a full house on the turn, and tht your call announces your hand where a raise does not (as much), this is a good reason to doubt your play.


You were very lucky to get the cutoff to call - it should be obvious you have an ace by the way you played the hand. In this sense, slowplaying is incorrect because the strength of your hand is obvious, and you gave the flop bettor a free (small) chance to outdraw you. This is partially compensated for by saving $ when you are beat.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

i think you should have thrown this hand away before the flop. you classified the player as solid, why get involved out of position with a hand he might have dominated.

who's to say its an overly aggressive button. your assuming that. he never said the player was overy aggressive. he said he was a very solid player. do you want to play in a pot with solid player out of position with a possibly totally dominated hand. go right ahead. pass is the play!