small pot-limit hand

I was playing a small pot-limit game the other day with mostly weak players. I had a tight image and had been stealing some pots lately.


I was in middle position (8 handed game, 1 blind) and got AKo. I opened with a raise and cutoff, button, and blind called.


Flop is AT3 rainbow. Blind bets the pot. I raise the pot. Others fold. Blind thinks for a couple seconds then calls. The blind had not been bluffing after the flop.


Turn is a 2. He checks. What would you do here?


Right or wrong, I checked behind him because I thought he had me beat and was laying a trap.


River is a 5. Board = AT325. He bets the pot which is about 20% of my current stack. Should I call?


I had not seen the blind make any bluffs after the flop in the previous 2 hours.


Thanks,


Jeff Gomberg

After thinking for a little, I decided to call although in hindsight I should not have because I put him on a minimum 2-pair (A-little suited).


He turned over 45o and took the pot.


I'm relatively new to pot-limit so is there anyway to lose less here? The only thing I can think of (other than folding the river) is to bet about half the pot on the turn and when he comes over the top, fold, so I lose a little less.


Comments appreciated. thanks.

Checking the turn was a mistake if it was going to lead to a question on the river.


I like the check on the turn, but only if you have decided that checking will induce a bluff on the end so you would call, OR you have decided that this guy NEVER bluffs and you will lay down to a bet on the river.


If you think the river willbe a tough decision, then bet the turn and fold if raised. It cost about the same, but you have a chance to pick up the pot when he folds the turn.


In your case, from your description, I would muck the river--you look beat. A 1 card straight, A-10, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5 all beat you. As do 2-3, 2-4, 3-4, 4-5 or just about any hand he had to "think about calling the flop with." You can beat A-Q, A-J, and split with AK. I dont think he would have played AQ, or AJ the way he did, thus I think you must be beat. By what I have no idea, but your behind.

Ok now I read the results. I would not have put him on 4-5. Against this player I would bet the turn in the future.

natedog below said (and I agree) that weak players at limit games are too loose, and they bluff too often. Weak players at PL/NL generally are playing scared. When they bet they usually have it.


Here you may have been ahead on the turn, but I would fold to his bet on the river.


Had you bet the turn you would have more information, and hopefully you would already have the pot.


Derrick

If this player is willing to call a pot sized raise on the flop when the only possible way of winning is runner runner, then the question should not be "how could I have lost less" but "how could I have lost more". You aint movin him.


Regards, JOE

My mistake, I failed to see the inside straight draw on the flop. Still, it's a bad call and you should have lost more. IMO you cannot call the river bet.


JOE

This hand has a lot of interesting stuff in it.


Blind makes a move to get a free card on the turn by betting on the flop. (In limit games this is usually done by betting/raising in late postion, but in PL/NL it can some times be done from in front. ) Plus, with the A on the board, there is a chance that he can take it right there.


Playing draws from early position in PL usually means going broke. When you raise him, he knows you have him beat, and he is drawing a a gut shot. He is getting 2:1 on his call and has 4 outs. In his best-case scenerio, if his flop bet succeeds in getting a free card, he has 8 outs out of 45. So even if he hits and you call, both of you must have a big enough stack to make and cover a pot-sized bet. He's not making a good play. PL is not about exploiting small edges.


From your perspective, you have to know your man. You don't think he bluffs in this situation. At all? 90% of the time? 60%? If the answer is never, then his call of your flop raise must mean he has you beat. But what does his hesitation about calling mean? An act? Weak kicker? Top and bottom pair? If you detect weakness, you might consider betting the turn. If you don't, it makes no sense to call the river.


I don't think it is a good idea to try and lose less money in PL hands. Start thinking about the way this guy plays, and devise a strategy for getting his whole stack if the right situation occurs. JMO

I think you should also consider the following, how good a hand is AKo in a PLgame? Generally I would say it's much trickier to play since if you flop it good you won't get a lot of action while in the cases you flop top pair/top kicker you get tough decisions when gettin played back at. If you play with weak opponents there's no need for unnecessary gambling, better wait til you hold a good hand then commit. If we turn it around say you hold 66 and limp in midposition, poor player on the button raise with AKo/AQo. Flop comes A76 and you will in most cases eat a big chunk of his stack. Most of your winnings in these kind of PLgames will come of people who can't release AA AK KK etc when you hit good.

Thanks everyone for the comments. They will surely help my game in the future. In fact, I just played the game again with a much larger success even after losing some big pots. Playing position and playing the player seem much more important in this type of game, and I think I am adjusting.


I made my first big laydown (set bad kicker) and am almost sure it was the right play.


I also noticed a lot of the players I played with are slowplaying their good hands and betting their shitty ones. It seems this is a big mistake in pot-limit because you can't win money by not building a pot with good hands / draws. It is going to be hard for me to lose in a game like this if the other players' good hands don't get paid off (by me) while mine are paid off by them (at least some of the time).


Gus, great post on where winnings come from in this game. I totally agree with you (from what I've seen so far - just about 10 hours or so of small pot-limit game).


I'm sure I'll be posting more hands to this forum as I continue to gain experience. Thanks!

Gus,


EXCELLENT post! I have limited PL/NL experience and only in small 1-2 blind games. My biggest pot was a hand just like you described. I held JJ in late position and a solid but not tricky EP brought it in for a raise. He had at worst a big ace. Perhaps I should muck, but I couldn't do it. I just called. He actually held AK and we got it all in on an AKJ flop. This took several raises, and he never asked himself what I was so willing to bet my stack on.


Looking back, I probably should muck or raise before the flop. Raising against this player probably was best because his reraise would be AA or KK, and I'd know what to do. Fortunately for me, bad plays don't ALWAYS lose :-)


Fat-Charlie

(Unsolicited opinion)I think a re-raise would have been a good idea, but I think calling with JJ preflop is fine for the same reason I think calling with 77 is fine (if you are deep). You are calling to flop a set. If he flops a set over your set, well dem da breaks.