missing out on value bets

There are many times I can say, that I don't make a value bet at the river, when i'm pretty sure I have the best hand.


There are reasons why I do this, it seems to be each and every time I try to make a value bet at the river, I don't end up with the best hand. Each and every time that I do not make a value bet at the river when I could have I usually end up winning the pot.


Sometimes I look in the pot and say to myself, nahh there is enough money in there, what is the use?? Then I also say, well even if I do bet, he's not going to call me unless he can beat me, so I may as well check it down.


I know what most of you are saying, post some specific hands and we can see where your flaws are? I should do that. But the topic of this convo is the psychological part.


Here is a very specific example, most people are used to Limit Play. Well I'm going to put up a No-Limit Example.


I am SB with A8c, everyone folded to me, so I made a little token raise and the BB called.

The flop came up ThTcJc, I checked and the BB blind bet out $25 from his stack of $300, I called the $25, and was working from a $200 stack.

On the turn I made my flush with the 6c. I checked intending to check raise, but he bet out $30, "now here is the catch, I knew damm well my opponnent didn't have a full house, and he probably had 3 Tens- but I did not reraise him I just called" On the river came an offsuit 4.


Don't ask me why but I checked. He checked behind me. I showed him a flush and she showed me 3 Tens.

I knew I had him beat, but I failed to CAPITALIZE!!!


Now you say, well let's hear another situation, fine I'll tell you this one too.....


I'm in the BB with Ac9h, everyone folds to SB who calls, I check. The flop comes 9 3 2, I bet out $30 from a stack of about $150 now, he calls, $30.

On the turn comes a K, he checks, (now this person is by far the least person who wants to play trick poker, he's the most straight forward person) he checks. I put him all in for another $60. He turns over Kh9h. The river comes with another King. He makes a full house, when he was a big dog to begin with in the hand, and on the flop.


It's little things like this that happen to me, like this A9 vs K9, that make me afraid to bet my Flush when i know damm well my opponnent would have called and I know damm well that he didn't have a full house. It's little memories like this that make me nervous about Value betting. I can tell you right now If I got paid off on my value betting a little more. I would be way ahead from where I am now. I am ahead in Poker, but i would have so much more from just value betting.


What can be done to improve this aspect of my game??

I'm surprised you're ahead playing like that.

No one's ahead playing like that. Its OK, you can admit it- you're losing. If you play big-bet like that then you are surely losing. If not yet...you will be.


The good news is you recognize the fault. If you can see it, you can fix it. You seem to already know the answer here, just make the adjustment.


Suggestions-

1. Read Feeney's book "Inside the Poker Mind"

2. Stop playing no-limit until you are comfortable making your 'value' bets.

3. Next time you feel the urge to 'puss-out' think about why the fear is there. If it is ONLY from memories of lost pots of the past, then shrug it off and bet. If it because you have legitimate reasons to check based on your knowledge and skill which tell you that in this situation it is correct to check... then check.

4. Tell me where you play /images/wink.gif


Good Luck

I'm not losing in Poker, I am infact a winner in the game.


I have read Inside the Poker Mind, and I just started rereading it again.


You also said stop playing No-Limit, until I am confortable making value bets. I am a winner in No-Limit far beyond any limit game I have played, I have marked down huge victories in the past several weeks. I capitalize on others mistakes.

Such as distorting the pot when they could possibly be on a flush draw and other things, like reading hands far beyond my other opponnets abilities....


I'm going to give a few examples of laydowns that I make and I'll show you why i'm a better no-limit player than limit.


I had a pair of QQ before the flop, and I make nice raise. my opponnent calls.


Flop is 9 7 7, I bet out, and he calls. on the turn, comes a T. I bet out, and he went all in. I mucked. He infact had a full house.


I had a pair of 99 before the flop, and I call the blinds, my opponnet to my right makes a substaintial raise. I muck. He had QQ.


I have AK. Flop comes A T 8, i raised before the flop. I bet out substaintially. My opponnet called. On the turn came a 7, i bet out, my opponnent raised, and I folded. he had a straight.


Here is another one.


I have a pair of JJ, flop is T 2 6, I bet out substaintially and my opponnent, reraised all in. I mucked, he told me later, that he had a set of 10's.


One final one.


I had AK, flop came K 9 8, I bet out my opp. called. on the turn came a 9. My opponnent check raised me substaintially, but I was not fooled. I called ( I should have raised) on the river came an Ace, i put him all in, and he mucked.


I'm not lying about these laydowns that I make, this is what makes me a much more significant winner than most. I minimize the mistakes I make.

I infact do not capitalize more than I should when I have the best of it. I think it's a mental block. This is where I need my help.


I think I have to take more time between betting rounds, I think I rush too fast to bet or rush too fast to check, when I can infact make a value bet.


I play in the Taj/Trop and at my home.


I don't always miss out on value bets, it's just sometimes. I have to capitalize on this aspect of the game. What can I do??

So the outcome that you want to accomplish is to be able to have as much confidence in making value bets as you already have in making great laydowns but fear has been preventing you from doing this, am I correct?

Yes, I sometimes have fear of value betting the river because I could be beat.

I'm not putting this post up as a joke if that is what you are trying to imply in your post. I'm being very serious.

No, I am not implying that you're joking. However, I am seriously implying that your fear may be trying to tell you something and this something is to your benefit.


I know that you don't know yet what your fear is trying to do for you (by SOMETIMES popping up in this situation) that's to your benefit, but if you did know, what do you think it is telling you?


You said, "Yes, I SOMETIMES have a fear of value betting the river.....". "Sometimes" implies that it doesn't happen all the time. It doesn't even imply that it happens most of the time. I have some questions about this "sometimes" that you're talking about.

How often, specifically, does this "sometimes" occur? In other words, out of, say, 10 times that you think a value bet is the right thing to do, what percentage of the time specifically has this fear prevented you from doing so?

I think i would say about 50% of the time or maybe even 40% of the time, I miss out on a value bet out of 10 times.

The good news, Mikey, is that you know exactly what has caused it and can therefore zero in on it.


There's an old saying that goes, "Whatever you resist persists". My suggestion is do not attempt to resist fear. Welcome it instead. Fear is your ally not an enemy. Fear has always been there to PROTECT you and to PREPARE you. In fact, these are the two primary functions of this highly essential safety mechanism called fear.


Think about it, Mikey. If it weren't for your ability to generate and feel fear, you wouldn't even be alive today much less be able to play no-limit. Without fear, you would have stepped in front of the very first speeding truck that you ever saw! Now, if stepping in front of a speeding truck is irrational what does that make fear? Think about it.


Have you ever felt curious? How about interested? Have you ever felt that delightful impulse to just want to understand something? Of course you have. You wouldn't be lurking and posting in these forums if you didn't, wouldn't you. You wouldn't be reading and rereading Inside the Poker Mind (and perhaps a few other good books as well) if you didn't, wouldn't you.


What would happen if you suddenly felt curious about your fear? What would happen if all of a sudden you felt delightfully interested in the many ways in which you can use your abilty to generate fear inside your mind and body to support you?


Mikey, as you say the following sentences to yourself, notice how it affects your experience of it:


First say to yourself: "I am reading Jedi Knight's post." Stop. Now say to yourself, "Curiously, I am reading Jedi Knight's post."


Say to yourself: "I am staring at the computer screen." Stop. Now say to yourself, "Interestingly, I am staring at the computer screen."


Say to yourself: "I am feeling fearful that this value bet might backfire on me." Stop. Now say to yourself: "Curiously, I am feeling fearful that this value bet might backfire on me."


Say to yourself: "I am feeling fearful that this value bet might not work." Stop. Now say to yourself: "Interestingly, I am feeling fearful that this value bet might not work."


Words like "interestingly", "curiously", "surprisingly", and "understandably" are called "cognitive qualifiers". If you say them in front of a feeling that causes you pain or discomfort, they will tend help you to feel differently about those feelings. For example: "Curiously, I'm getting pissed off." By saying "curiously" before saying "I'm getting pissed off", you will pre-set yourself to feel curious about getting pissed off rather actually feel pissed off. Cognitive qualifiers work for all kinds of feelings (including positive ones), and are especially useful at helping you to disassociate from your more negative feelings.


I suggest, Mikey, that for the next few weeks, that you practice using cognitive qualifiers in your self-talk especially during those few times in which, curiously, you're feeling fearful that a value bet might not work. Surprisingly, it has worked wonders for me in the past. Interestingly, it will work for you too.

But the topic of this convo is the psychological part, (that feeling that tells you to make the great lay down is the same feeling that tells you to make that value bet). Don't lose that strong confidence you have that is why your psyci is stronger then your opponents!