Too maniacal for a first hand?

[Marcotte]

First hand of PokerRoom $10+1. I am UTG+2 with 2c2s
UTG mini raises to T40.
UTG+1 calls.
I call.
2 others call.
Flop is Q 7 2 rainbow.
UTG bets 250 (into pot of about 200).
UTG+1 calls.
I go all-in.
Comments?

[Eder]

why not ...prob 1 guy has 2 pr...hope it worked out for you

[codewarrior]

What more could you ask for here, unless you know the players? The push is exactly right. OTOH, I'm a little tight, & I would fold pf. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

My name is codewarrior, and I approved this post

[adanthar]

Why all in? There aren't any draws on this board, and you really want the two ahead of you to put some more chips into this pot on the turn, not to mention the people behind you.

Either you're drawing to one out or they're drawing to no more than 2. Ignoring the first, let them hang themselves instead of letting some guy fold his AQ.

[willie]

nothin wrong with the allin, that pot has got pumped up and you have a set, make them pay to keep drawin.

[codewarrior]

It's a $10. Let's let AQ call the all-in, or let's let the slow played AA or KK catch cheaply if we don't push....

Or do what I said in the 1st place and fold 22 pf.

[betgo]

First of all, you don't want to fold 22 preflop with deep money and multiway action. This hand is an example of why not. You are picking up a lot for your 40 chip investment.

It is very difficult for anyone to draw out on you with one card with this flop. You don't want to scare anyone away. I would flat call or reraise 250.

[codewarrior]

How often are you going to flop a set with 22?

100% of the time it is bottom set.

Late in a tourney, you might be creative with 22.

Why waste chips?

[betgo]

You hit a set one time in 8. Here you stand to make about 1000 chips for a 40 chip investment.

[codewarrior]

Emphasis on "here" I see your point, but I just disagree. You do not stand to make 1000 here *on average* - you stand to make 1000 in *this specific instance*. Of course, I may be on tilt and clueless at the moment. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
How often are you going to flop a set with 22?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly as often as with 77 or AA.

[ QUOTE ]
100% of the time it is bottom set.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you have a set, someone else has a set around...well, a 1/16 chance of any given player also having a pair, and a 1/7.5 chance of flopping the third except it's higher because there's only two cards left, minus the occasional time the other pair gets folded PF...0% of the time.

I've lost 2 set over set hands (not counting PF all ins) in over 30,000 in my DB. For all intents and purposes I don't really care.

[ QUOTE ]
Late in a tourney, you might be creative with 22.

Why waste chips?

[/ QUOTE ]

What's so creative about it? He's calling a minraise with a caller in front and probably 2 or 3 more behind. It's 2.5% of his stack, the pot will be a couple of hundred on the flop plus the bets that will go in on the flop, and people at 10+1 can be counted on to call massive amounts of chips with top pair no kicker.

If you'd call 77-55 in this situation, there's very little to no difference.

[codewarrior]

I agree with your post 100%, see my original reply for post flop play comments.

Lost set over set only twice? Either you are very lucky or I'm very unlucky.

I never said he was being creative with 22 this time - I advocated folding it pf or playing it the way I described. I said you can be creative with 22 later in the game. This, as I recall, is the 1st hand of the tournament - not later.

[adanthar]

Oops, I misinterpreted your post- sorry.

I still say you can slowplay this either way, though. Let's put it this way: if AA or KK are out there, they're calling all their chips no matter what happens. Seriously, you may as well assume they'll have 2 more cards, because they'll call now, on the turn, on the river, or if you flash them pocket twos. It really doesn't matter.

So that leaves a hand like QJ (or an AQ behind you). Huge overbet/huge overbet/AI raise, and a better than average player may fold his AQ. Even a real sucker will probably fold his Q8s. Certainly, if the first guy's semibluffing, he's going to fold to a call/all in, whereas after a call, something like A7 held by a LAG is gonna try again on the turn.

On the other hand, a flat call and that Q8 is probably going to draw to his '5 outer'. Why not let him?

[lastchance]

Let's take a look at the math here.

You have about $800.

You call 40 of it pf.

7 out of 8 times, you lose $40 when you don't hit your set. Hell, let's say, you lose $40 9 out of 10 times because of someone reraising, having a really bad board when you flop your set (3-flush, 3-straight, etc).

The rest of the time, a lot of chips are going into the pot at $10+1. People will show TPNK, middle pair sometimes, and stuff like that. If you can't get 500 chips on average from the two players in front of you and whoever calls in the first hand of an $10+1, you're a pretty bad player. For the 9 times you drop your 2's on the flop, you lose $360. For the lone time you win, you gain $500.

500-360 = 140.
140/8 = chip EV of 17.5 + a huge chance of busting someone early.

Here, there are no draws on the board, period. $500 is a lot of chips, but there's no risk to just calling on the flop, and if a turn card comes which gives a draw, you get it in then.

[wjmooner]

First, almost never be afraid to push in all your chips with a set in a SnG. Sure, maybe on the river if you have a set of 2's and the board reads TJQK2 with 4 spades you might be in trouble. Pushing in with your set is not maniacal, especially with a bet and a call in front of you.

I see nothing wrong with this push. Could you have raised the minimum? I guess. There are no obvious straight or flush possibilities, so I guess you could slowplay.

Lots of ways to play this, a push is fine.

C

[codewarrior]

I like your point, and this is a weakness in my own game. My style is a blocking offensive defense style, which gives up chips vs. taking the pot down right there. My line of reasoning is that a set of twos is not that strong to slowplay - but the potential damage is not that great - if you can let it go. Most $10 players cannot.

[codewarrior]

Your turn play point is well said. See my thoughts in my response to whoever it was I just responded to. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ah poker - "It depends" /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[SmileyEH]

If you want to fold 22 preflop for 4% of your stack....I suggest another card game.

-SmileyEH

[Eder]

In the $10 SnG a push so early often implies top pair with an ace...or worse...pushing this set will often get a call...I like it...calling = death...bin there done that not slowplaying bottom set ever thks haha

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your point, and this is a weakness in my own game. My style is a blocking offensive defense style, which gives up chips vs. taking the pot down right there. My line of reasoning is that a set of twos is not that strong to slowplay - but the potential damage is not that great - if you can let it go. Most $10 players cannot.

[/ QUOTE ]


FWIW,

There is no way I am calling even a miniraise with 22 on the first hand of a $10 table with several players still to act behind me. Just a waste of chips. (except in this case - lol)

[Jason Strasser]

In a multi-way pot, I'd think you'd flop a set more often with 22 than AA, generally because more hands involving an ace are generally present than hands involving a 2.

-Jason

[ethan]

Comments? Sure, keep playing this hand exactly the way you did.

Play a low set fast. You're not going to regret it. If you happened to lose this hand, so be it, but waiting until the turn wasn't going to help you in the slightest. Good push. This flop can allow a slowplay (no flush/straight draw), but i tend not to bother. If you have two people willing to put this much of their stack into an uncoordiated flop then you just hope they have AQ/KQ and push.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
First hand of PokerRoom $10+1. I am UTG+2 with 2c2s
UTG mini raises to T40.
UTG+1 calls.
I call.
2 others call.
Flop is Q 7 2 rainbow.
UTG bets 250 (into pot of about 200).
UTG+1 calls.
I go all-in.
Comments?

[/ QUOTE ]]

good play. Keep pushing in this situation, the vast majority of the time you'll be ahead.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
What more could you ask for here, unless you know the players? The push is exactly right. OTOH, I'm a little tight, & I would fold pf. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

My name is codewarrior, and I approved this post

[/ QUOTE ]

Why fold for 40. Any low PP is easy to play. You either hit your set or fold. If you hit your set you will likely get payed of handsomely. On the other hand are you going to miss 40 chips.

The implied odds are huuuuuge. Get those chips in there.

Edit to say oh look someone has expressed this a lot better wiv mafs and everyfing.

[DeuceKicker]

True, but this is the first hand of the tourney, which IMO changes a lot of the equation. With a minraise from UTG, some hotshot who just watched a rerun of WPT will sense weakness and ask himself, "What would Gus Hansen do?" This of course leads to him 'putting a move' on the table by pushing from LP with T8.

I want to get in as cheaply as possible with 22, and the first hand is often really really expensive.



"Why fold for 40. Any low PP is easy to play. You either hit your set or fold."

[Marcotte]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's take a look at the math here.

You have about $800.

You call 40 of it pf.


[/ QUOTE ]

First off, thanks for all the responses.This has got to be my most popular thread yet. I went to Vegas* for a long weekend, so I didn’t get a chance to check up on it until today.

This hand was on Poker Room, so my stack was T1500. I will usually call a small raise (3bb or less) with any pp in the first two levels. Add a call in the mix and I like the play a lot more. With the amount of callers we got pf, we already had a healthy pot, and when UTG led strong and got a call, I wanted to take it down right there, not double up. Fortunately for me, everyone fold to UTG who called with AQ. UTG+1 folded. My heart skipped a beat when a Q hit the river, but then I calmed down and saw my boat.
(Unfortunately, I ended up going out in 4th after playing very tight and going into the bubble with fairly even stacks.)

* Lost $80 playing 2-4; first hand a guy live straddles, I get JJ and raise…4 see the flop where I hit top set. Live straddler calls me to the river and make his flush with a Tc2c. arrgggh! /images/graemlins/mad.gif