20-200 Spread Limit Hand

[J.A.Sucker]

I'm not sure if this is an intersting hand or not, but I'll post it anyway. Game is 20-200 spread limit, meaning that you can bet between 20 and 200 on any street.

Blinds are 10-20 and 10 on the button. We are playing 3 handed. I'm on the button, the other good player is in the SB, and the live one is the BB.

I have A4o and make it 70 to go. SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: Kh-4h-5s. Live one checks, I bet 100. He calls.

Turn is 7c. He bets out 200. What do I do?

[random]

I'm curious why you don't think this is an easy fold. I have my reasons why I think it is, but they are quite elementary, so won't waste everyone's time.

[Steve Giufre]

I dont have a lot of experiance at spread limit, but I would have to dump it. You are behind unless he called the flop with zero hoping to outplay you later on. You can only beat a bluff, and it will probably cost you 400 to find out. He probably wouldnt lead into for the maximum with a king, looks more like 67 or 78 to me. However given your description of him, I wouldnt be surpised if he has already decided to call down if raised.

[elysium]

hi j.a.

this is a fold j.a.; you know that. he doesn't want to be raised, but he thinks you won't bet if he checks. he's putting you on the middle pair best kicker. you could raise, which may not be a bad idea. however, this is a good player j.a.; the 3 of yous are all highly skilled. he might have 2 pair or hit a set. whatever he's got, you must see that you're beat. you cannot call this one j.a.

[mike l.]

"What do I do?"

tell us what you mean by "live one". otherwise there is no possible way for us to help you here. it's completely player dependent.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
"What do I do?"

tell us what you mean by "live one". otherwise there is no possible way for us to help you here. it's completely player dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]


My definition of a "live one" would be someone calling this $200 bet on the turn.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Joseph Busti]

This post is irony at its best

[Dantes]

The 7 is a card that where if you were ahead on this flop when he called $100 you're almost certainly behind when he shows interest on the turn. Especially since it doesn't put out a flush draw. Change it to a jack/queen/ten and I would consider playing on.

[James282]

looks like he has a 6. But I would fold anyways.
-James

[J.A.Sucker]

Hi mike,

You're right. The "live one" needs more description. He's never played anywhere near this high, and is only doing so because he won a jackpot at Artichoke Joe's recently. He's a middle-aged Asian guy who is also being sweated (sp?) by his youngish girlfriend, who he's obviously trying to impress.

The reason that this hand is interesting is because a bet like this really reeks to me in this case. I can't explain why, but maybe you can for me, mike.

Best,

Sucker

[J.A.Sucker]

Raising here wouldn't have been my play, though. I'll explain the rest of my reasoning on this hand later, as well as telling you all what I did.

[TomCollins]

Where is this game at? Bay 101? How often is it spread, and would you consider it a decent game for NL players who can hold their own?

[J.A.Sucker]

Yes it was at Bay 101. It's spread Mondays and Tuesdays, though it doesn't go every time. It's not really like a NL game at all, though. If you aren't a good limit game player, you'll get slaughtered. There is plenty of NL around the Bay, though.

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes it was at Bay 101. It's spread Mondays and Tuesdays, though it doesn't go every time. It's not really like a NL game at all, though. If you aren't a good limit game player, you'll get slaughtered. There is plenty of NL around the Bay, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was curious about the structure as well. How would you describe its limit-like qualities vs. nolimit-like qualities?

I understand that you won't be able to price people out by making large sized bets if people are betting the max early but this is a bit like nl with shallow money (which I guess differs from real nl cash play).

[Ulysses]

If this is who I suspect, it would explain my seeing him in a Commerce 40 game recently which confused the hell out of me. Anyway, fold.

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
What do I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hurry up and Graduate Mr. Sucker. Are you looking forward to years of post-doc slavery or are you going to haunt poker rooms for awhile?

I would have checked behind on the flop. This is probably terrible advice; therefore it is worth stating very loudly.

-Zeno

[mike l.]

it reeks cause it looks like a semibluff esp. 3 handed but in this case it's usually not. in every stop n go case you need to ask yourself is this a bet that wants me to call or is this a bet that wants me to fold. given no info it would normally be a bet that wants you to fold so you would call or raise. but in this case since he's unsophisticated it's usually a bet he wants you to call so you should fold (the implied odds are not there to continue).

[TomCollins]

Strange, I haven't found it yet. I know Hayward has 1-2 or some such game, but I heard it was a suspect place. Lucky Chances has round the clock capped buy in, but only 5-5 on Sundays. I plan on checking out the 10-10-20 Friday night, but what else am I missing? 1-2 is too small, and 10-10-20 is a bit over my limits, but worth having a good time on a Friday night at the least.

[J.A.Sucker]

Glad you can now sleep at night, El Diablo.

[J.A.Sucker]

Glad you can now sleep at night, El Diablo.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
1-2 is too small

[/ QUOTE ]

When I used to play live more, this game often played as big as the LC 5-5. A lot of times, with the right people, it played much bigger than the 5-5 ever did. The 1-2 is often killed or double-killed pre-flop.

[J.A.Sucker]

I'd like to graduate, but the gods won't let me go for a little while longer. That's OK, because I'm taking it pretty easy for the most part. Post-doc life is always a possibility, but I'd rather not do it. Who knows what the future may hold, good man Zeno, who knows...

Someday, I'll be Dr. Sucker, though...

[J.A.Sucker]

Good points, as usual mike, and exactly what I was thinking about during the hand. The main thing to realize is that this guy will not fold a hand that I beat, regardless of what I do, so raising the turn is out. However, my hand is pretty weak. That said, the stop n go is so foul smelling.

He didn't have a real hand on the flop (unless he hit a set, perhaps), because in this game, it's not worth it to wait for the turn, since you can just pop it right there. However, if he was open ended, he may have hit a pair that beats me, which I thought was a strong possibility.

That leaves me either beaten on the turn, with no price to continue, or winning by a hair. There's 550 in the pot for me to call. If he fires again on the river (either as a made hand or as a bluff), it'll cost me 400 to win 750. Not enough to play on, IMO. However, there's a very good chance that he will shut down on the river and give up, and this is why I did strongly consider calling. Now, I'm getting 5.5-2. This is a good price, IMO. The true odds are somewhere in between, I think, but since he's unsophisticated, as you say, I think the former is more likely, so I mucked.

He then turned over A8o for a semibluff. Unfortunately, the game broke soon thereafter.

[turnipmonster]

I would have guessed 66.

--turnipmonster

[TomCollins]

Pray tell how I can start with more than $100 on the table then.

If it involves grinding for more than 3 hours, I'll just plug into the internet.

If you were talking about the Hayward, I don't want to get mugged.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Pray tell how I can start with more than $100 on the table then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, one time I saw a certain person in the game w/ a lot of money, so I put $4000 on the table and they gave me $4000 worth of chips. Pretty simple.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were talking about the Hayward, I don't want to get mugged.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was. I've been there many times and it is indeed in kind of sketchy area. I don't worry about it, but it's not unreasonable to be a little concerned. Go with a friend.

[TomCollins]

1-2 $100 capped buy in game is not something I would enjoy playing in with a $5 time charge. Ok, its not that bad, but anyway. I'm out here on business by myself, so if any 2+2ers would go with me, I could count them as friends and would like to go.

I'll probably head to Santa Cruz tonight instead and play tomorrow night at LC in the big game.

Thanks Diablo.

[Ray Zee]

okay sucker my friend. how about this way. dont raise before the flop. think about the game.
after he bet into you, he has nothing here or a king. i would raise him 200 in a heartbeat. even if you are wrong you get it back next hand. also to boot, since he has a sweater he may even fold a better hand but not a king. good to see you playing them at that game again. when i get there this winter, i hope you will have lots of antes for me to steal. this is an interesting hand because most players just take the easy way out. but also may not understand that this particular game is a different animal.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
1-2 $100 capped buy in game is not something I would enjoy playing in with a $5 time charge. Ok, its not that bad, but anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it is that bad. If you're going to play small blinds NL, the uncapped game in Hayward is the place to go.

[J.A.Sucker]

Ray,

The reason I raised preflop was to shut out the SB, who was a good player, but unwilling to tangle with me. We were basically taking turns at the third guy. Is this not a good enough reason to raise preflop? Thanks.

[elysium]

hi j.a.

i thought you meant pro type live one j.a.; it's still a fold unless he's a maniac. you cannot continue on in this hand unless you're a maniac. and you're not.

j.a., the fact that he is a live one does not help you out. it means, if i'm getting this right, he will do anything to impress his girlfriend. therefore, you must be able to sustain a reraise bluff. this type of....this guy is a gambler j.a.; you say he has a billion dollar bankroll? silly man, fold.

[theBruiser500]

"okay sucker my friend. how about this way. dont raise before the flop. think about the game."

Could someone help me out with what about the game makes it so you shouldn't raise preflop with A4o?

[J.A.Sucker]

The blinds in this game are insignificant compared to the money that you gain postflop from bad players. This is kind of like NL. However, unlike NL or PL, bad players can't blow you off of a hand, since the betting is capped, like a limit game.

In a limit game, much of the value of the raise is to possibly steal the blinds. In this game, it may not be worth it. The only reason that I would actually raise here (and why I did) is to get headsup with the idiot, because the SB was only playing back with actual good hands and leaving me alone otherwise. Thus, I don't set myself up to a difficult hand from the SB. That said, it still may not be worth it to raise preflop. Normally it isn't, but in this case, I'm still not sure...

[theBruiser500]

What about the advantages of seeting yourself up to check the flop for a free card and setting yourself up to steal the pot if rags fall on the flop? I play NL and it sounds like preflop you played this like a NL hand primarly. For the reasons I mentioned I always raised on the button when I entered the pot. So in a NL game you would limp with Ax it sounds like, and I'm curious, what other hands would you be more inclined to limp with than raise? (I'm guessing that you will raise or limp with them a percent of the time, not always one way or the other).

Also, you write, "This is kind of like NL. However, unlike NL or PL, bad players can't blow you off of a hand, since the betting is capped, like a limit game." But I'm not sure what you are saying the consequences of this are... Sorry for all the questions, this topic of limping/raising on the button interests me very much.