Stealing (Poll)

[Chief911]

The situation:

You are midway through a tournament with blinds at 200/400 and the average stack is 10,000. You have 10,000. No huge or small stacks at your table. There are also no hugely aggressive players at your table, and most steal attempts are folded down to. You have a solid table image. Nothing special about the current BB or SB.

Its folded to you in MP. You steal with:

[InchoateHand]

Of course, this is a wierd loaded question--how did my table image ever become so good if I'm stealing with what I'm stealing with here? Or did I just wait a long time to start stealing with Ax/2Paint from MP? Like, until right now?
Also, my tables haven't broken much? And this is a live tourney, or a high stakes online where people are paying attention to this stuff at the midpoint of a tourney?

Eh...

[InchoateHand]

n/m

[McMelchior]

Open/raising from MP with a mid pair is not a steal - that's a value bet.

Common wisdom says only to attempt steals with true rags - you don't want to face a re-raise with a halfway decent hand and either be sucked in or have to fold a hand that you would have liked to see the flop with.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[kdotsky]

[ QUOTE ]
Open/raising from MP with a mid pair is not a steal - that's a value bet.

Common wisdom says only to attempt steals with true rags - you don't want to face a re-raise with a halfway decent hand and either be sucked in or have to fold a hand that you would have liked to see the flop with.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree to raise with small PP here, but doesn't it qualify as a "halfway decent" hand like you said? You would hate to face a reraise with it...

I don't completely understand this concept of not raising if you hate a reraise... If you're on the button and you raise with AJ, AQ, or 88 it would not be fun to be reraised. But you can't just call, right?

[Piers]

With everyone having around 22 Big bets I think you should be trying to limp in not steal. If the game is so aggressive this is not possible I think you should tighten right up.

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
Open/raising from MP with a mid pair is not a steal - that's a value bet.

Common wisdom says only to attempt steals with true rags - you don't want to face a re-raise with a halfway decent hand and either be sucked in or have to fold a hand that you would have liked to see the flop with.

Best,

McMelchior (Johan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Common wisdom makes no sense. If it is correct to fold your halfway decent hand to a reraise, then fold it. Refusing to steal because you might not have the discipline to fold later is a psychological issue, not a poker one. And if you get flat called and have to play, you'd rather have good cards than 72o.

[gergery]

Good post.

I'd rather have two paint than Ax or low-PP, because if I'm called I'm likely to want to bet out at any flop, and with two paint i've either caught TPGK and am happy or i missed and i know i can fold with clean conscience if played with. With low PP, I don't get a set but have overcards alot, so if i'm played with its not as clear what to do. same thing with Ax -- i could have best hand but don't know.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
Open/raising from MP with a mid pair is not a steal - that's a value bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say it's some of both, but you make a good point. This definitely shouldn't be considered a pure steal, but it's still a hand you'd rather not see a flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Common wisdom says only to attempt steals with true rags - you don't want to face a re-raise with a halfway decent hand and either be sucked in or have to fold a hand that you would have liked to see the flop with.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure this is quite what CW is saying these days. If you're raising, you should know whether you're going to fold or call if someone puts you all-in. There are groups of hands that make this decision much easier, and you're going to do a fair amount of your stealing with them, but you still have to do _something_ with 99. I see the medium-hands as ones to steal with that'll have some decent value postflop.

regards,
--Ethan

(edit - in the poll, I chose any two paint and mid-low pairs. gergery does a good job of explaining why 2-paint is good, and with the pairs it's often not _too_ hard to figure out where I stand.)

[donkeyradish]

I don't think 'any 2 cards' is the right answer, but with something even as weak as 98o its got to be tempting to try and steal at least occasionally, IF you think people are folding too much.. no?

What I mean is, you want to try to steal X% of the time, and statistically the way to do that is, choose your best X% of hands.

All you need to estimate is, what is X? It could be quite high, depending.

[AceKQJT]

I chose Mid-Low pair and any 2 paint. However, I am likely to open/raise with more hands than those in this situation, but not just any 2. suited connectors as low as 5-6, and 9-To would be some likely combinations for me to open raise with in this situation.

According to your read of the table, most steals have been successful. I'll try to maximize on that by stealing with a few extra hands.

--Casey

[Chief911]

This was fun. I wasn't sure if this would get buried, and have no interest, or would get some true interest. I'm glad it did. It was unfortunate that such a bland situation had to be created, but had to choose something.

I'd like to ask this though. I'm very surprised there are not more people saying "Any Two Cards?"

This is a perfect situation to be taking control of a table, and stealing with any two cards when folded to you in MP. Is there risk? Yes. But more than 2 of 3 times you are going to get the blinds, and the rest of the time if you are called and you bet the flop, you'll take it down. I dont see how this cannot be +EV, especially in the situation described in the primary post.

Someone talk me out of stealing with any 2 here.

Nick

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a perfect situation to be taking control of a table, and stealing with any two cards when folded to you in MP. Is there risk? Yes. But more than 2 of 3 times you are going to get the blinds, and the rest of the time if you are called and you bet the flop, you'll take it down. I dont see how this cannot be +EV, especially in the situation described in the primary post.

Someone talk me out of stealing with any 2 here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am all in favor of attacking the blinds from MP and beyond, but I am skeptical of doing it without some semblance of a hand. Whether it be 76o or k5s, but I probably wouldn't do it with pure trash from MP.

[SossMan]

<font color="blue"> There are also no hugely aggressive players at your table, and most steal attempts are folded down to. </font>

not any two, but certainly any pair, any two broadway, most aces, Kings down to 8, suited connectors.

[Whitey]

I was one of the few who chose any two cards.

I think stealing with any two is viable as long as you also play well after the flop.

For Instance if it came Ace high and you opponent lead out with a smallish bet are you going to fold everytime? If you answer yes then I think you should wait for a half decent hand before stealing.

If your willing to re-raise a possible weak bet with rags then the cards can become irrelevant.

[curtains]

I'd steal a lot more if there were antes in the pot. Without antes my stealing frequency will be signifigantly less.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> There are also no hugely aggressive players at your table, and most steal attempts are folded down to. </font>

not any two, but certainly any pair, any two broadway, most aces, Kings down to 8, suited connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, what he said. I really _want_ to say any two, but for some reason I still insist on some postflop value.