3$R Stars hand

[BobboFitos]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP1 (t14020)
<font color="C00000">MP2 (t5845)</font>
MP3 (t20025)
CO (t17956)
<font color="C00000">Zelijostocko (t10975)</font>
SB (t30765)
BB (t5994)
UTG (t11658)
UTG+1 (t11080)

Preflop: Zelijostocko is Button with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t1200</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t1200, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Zelijostocko calls t1200, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: (t3800) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets t1600</font>, <font color="CC3333">Zelijostocko ????????????????????? </font>

This is after the rebuy period, lots of players have been eliminated but we're still not close to the seats whatsoever. Average stack is roughly 11k.
Also, a friend commented he didn't like my PF play. I'm moreso asking what to do on this flop, but if someone would fold preflop here, please say why. (He provided reasons to fold, but frankly I didn't agree with the argument he provided)

Thanks in advance!

[adanthar]

I just played my first Stars $3 and got eliminated 71/466 after my jacks ran into AK PF. This is after playing something like 10 hands all tournament (too many raises in front and too much complete trash in my hand) and doubling up on 3 of them. Boy, is that tourney ever soft.

Anyway: with position and for about 10% of your stack, you could make a case for all three options PF, but I think calling's probably the worst. Folding or pushing seem more attractive; MP2 is probably going to call a push, but it doesn't look like he has a big pair.

On this flop, though, you have a definite push or fold. I don't horribly like his bet- it smells too much like a flush draw with overs or a bigger pair- but UTG is probably folding and your overlay is nice. I think I'd push after thinking a while.

[adios]

FWIW

Your options are to fold, call or raise.

I think folding is out of the question.

Calling - The pot is laying you T6800 and it's costing you T1600. By doing this you may encourage a call from the UTG+1 although if you were sure UTG+1 wouldn't call I might be tempted to smooth call. I would think that a call from UTG+1 is a call you welcome because so many scary cards can still come.

Raising - If you raise how much? I think you have to go all in to knock out UTG+1 and you'll get some back if UTG+1 doesn't call. Looks line MP2 is pot commited so you can expect him to call. If you're beat you have some outs.

[chuddo]

As much as I hate throwing in a small raise I think this spot might justify it.

This board is co-ordinated and kind of draw-heavy that it is not likely anyone is going to try any serious slow-playing. But then again that is read dependant.

I think that by throwing out a small raise you get a grasp of where you are in the hand. If UTG+1 comes along and calls after a raise-reraise you may be in some trouble. If UTG+1 thinks he has enough action to get paid off on his monster he will go ahead and re-re-raise all in there and you can safely get away.

Now if UTG+1 folds to your raise and you only have MP2 to deal with your raise helps find where you stand against him. If he comes over the top then and there you can more easily decide you are behind and get away from the hand. If he just calls you, then there is a chance that the raise combined with a threatening turn card will help you get to a cheap showdown since you have position on him.

On top of all this, if you decide to make a smallish raise then and there and have to abandon the hand later, you still have about 6K with blinds at 200-400. Then again, if you let it go on the flop you leave yourself with about 9k. Tough spot.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
I just played my first Stars $3 and got eliminated 71/466 after my jacks ran into AK PF. This is after playing something like 10 hands all tournament (too many raises in front and too much complete trash in my hand) and doubling up on 3 of them. Boy, is that tourney ever soft.

Anyway: with position and for about 10% of your stack, you could make a case for all three options PF, but I think calling's probably the worst. Folding or pushing seem more attractive; MP2 is probably going to call a push, but it doesn't look like he has a big pair.

On this flop, though, you have a definite push or fold. I don't horribly like his bet- it smells too much like a flush draw with overs or a bigger pair- but UTG is probably folding and your overlay is nice. I think I'd push after thinking a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your flop thinking is exactly congruent with mine. I felt the flop was a push/fold spot, with little fold equity for pushing MP out of the picture. But as you said, I didn't put him on an overpair, so he more likely had hearts. (In my mind) I pushed. Results will come later.

As for preflop, I hate pushing into the EP raiser. It's too a big an overbet against a player with roughly the same stack size (I'm not worried about MP, as you said, him just calling with a big pair wouldn't make sense) and although I could fold AQ/99/88, he might race me with AK, but the bigger problem is him winding up with a big pair.

When he checked the flop, however, I really didn't think he was trapping MP or me. MP was too short to really trap, and he'd want to protect an overpair against me if I had overs, for example.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
Now if UTG+1 folds to your raise and you only have MP2 to deal with your raise helps find where you stand against him. If he comes over the top then and there you can more easily decide you are behind and get away from the hand. If he just calls you, then there is a chance that the raise combined with a threatening turn card will help you get to a cheap showdown since you have position on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, that's interesting-raising just the minimum. In my mind I was torn between folding (fearing an overpair or set where I'd have 6 outs) calling (allowing me to push if they have a draw and a non threatening card hits) or raising all in. I didn't consider raising the minimum.

However - As you mentioned yourself, on such a draw heavy board, UTG +1 most likely wouldn't slowplay, so I didn't view him as a threat. Also, MP player, if he moved over the top to my min raise, I would HAVE to call the all in, it's no question about not calling it, (such great pot odds)the only purpose in my mind a min raise might be nice is to protect myself against UTG +1.