What's the Plan for This One?

[Festus22]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

Flop: (13 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero ???

[AdamL]

I wouldn't take him out of the lead if he is aggressive enough. If he has AA or AK you're way behind, and if he has TT, JJ or KK you're nicely ahead.

You could call the flop and go for a turn checkraise, and fold to a 3-bet on the turn...

[Rico Suave]

Festus:

This is one trouble spot in my game---playing against a preflop 3-bettor AND multiple opponents when I flop a hand. The problem as I see it is that you are crushed by the 3 bettors AK, AQ, QQ, AA..but ahead of the JJ, TT, KK. You really do not want to spray a lot of chips around if the 3-bettor wants to play, but the pot is large and you cannot ignore the other 2 players.

So, I dunno what is best. I would probably lead the flop and see how the action goes down. I am not interested in going to war on the flop, but I am certainly not folding to a flop raise.

I would be interested in hearing some other opinions on this.

--Rico

[Festus22]

I hear ya. I was thinking the same as you on probably being behind to the majority of 3-betting hands but I can't do much with the others since there's an opponent on either side of 3-bet guy and I.

Gutshots probably aren't folding the flop no matter what I do. If I am ahead, I'm not really risking a free card by checking since the 3-bet guy is probably drawing to 2-outs.

So I pretty much turned turtle and checked. CO checked, button bet, SB called, I called. CO called. How delightful.

Turn K /images/graemlins/spade.gif. (The board is A /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif). SB checks, I roll my eyes and ...?

[Rico Suave]

Festus:

I get the feeling that no one wants to opine on this one /images/graemlins/frown.gif

K /images/graemlins/spade.gif ewwww! Check and call one more back to you.

Rico

[John Paul]

I agree with Rico, there is a good chance you are drawing dead here, but the pot is probably big enough to justify calling twice and finding out. Not a fun position to be in.

[Festus22]

"I get the feeling that no one wants to opine on this one"

It appears you're right. I don't know if it's so easy it's obvious (to everyone but us), too tough or I've been shunned.

At any rate, I checked, CO checked, button bet, SB called, I called with the newly acquired gutshot and the CO folded.

River is 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I checked, button bet, SB called. Now at this point I'm getting something like 13:1 to call closing the action but to be honest, I just CAN"T be good here. So I called anyway /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

Button showed Q-Q for the flopped set.
SB had A-10o.

At least I wasn't in last place.

So I went check/call, check/call, check/call. Somebody, ANYBODY, please give me a better line for this (if there is one, of course).

[cnfuzzd]

I dont think your line is terrible, it just leaves you calling pretty much all the way since you dont know where you are. I would bet, call the raise, and fold the turn unimproved. And i dont mean "get more outs" Improved. The button could easily be 3 betting preflop with AT or JJ, but he will also be 3 betting with AK or AA.
Folding the turn is almost essential. I am giving you three outs, and i think you even have to discount some of them as a split. You are almost certainly facing at least two pair, and are getting 8:. Closing the action with better odds is maybe an ok call, but unless you put button as a *very* loose raiser, its time to abandon ship.

peace

john nickle

[Cosimo]

What's the read on this player? Is he going to 3-bet with a wide range of hands, or just premiums? What's SB and the CO coming in with? Half of the premium hands have you beat on this flop, and the other half corrupt your outs. You're in a bad spot with the jack and you need to know if the 3-better was serious.

Bet the flop, and reraise if they're all fish. If they're tight raisers, maybe bet/fold. I'm not even sure a J on the turn will help if they're tight.

[StellarWind]

This is a tough hand.

The secret to this type of hand is bet odds. You are getting 3-1 right now. As people drop out your odds will decrease to 2-1 and then 1-1.

3-1 odds on every bet allows you to fight with Button as long as you win at least 1/4 of the time. That doesn't seem like an unreasonable request when you see the flop. Accordingly I bet the flop and reraise the Button's inevitable (and therefore meaningless) raise.

If he fails to cap I will lead a turn blank. If he caps I will start check-calling.

BUT, if the third and fourth players drop out early, then you need to pull back from all of this aggression. Don't 3-bet the flop heads up. Just call down and play for a cheap showdown.

I'd give you some advice about that horrible turn, but I have no idea. I think you must have offended some deity.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the day just started like an hour ago (at least it did here in NY), but StellarWind having no idea has already made this the POTD in my book.

[ErrantNight]

There have been 2 (two) huge posts about this exact issue... what to do on a scary flop when you're first to act against a preflop three better when you have a hand you want to show down with...

you can search around for the post, but the conclusion there (and on a similar situation in SSH) is the very passive line you took: check/call all the way down.

HOWEVER

you're an overcaller. after a scary turn and unimproved by the river (no miracle straight, say)... you should consider giving this up. with one opponent, easy call. with two, you're almost certainly beat.

[donny5k]

I think the fact that it's a protected pot pretty much solves the problem of possibly folding the best hand. Any bet he makes is for value and he probably knows this. The king on the turn should confirm to you that you are behind, but closing the action and getting good implied odds on your gutshot you pretty much have to call. I think it is a safe fold on the river in an overcall spot though since there are only a couple hands he could 3-bet that you beat, and those hands probably wouldn't bet the whole way with 3 overcards on the board and 2 callers. If I were actually playing the hand I would probably call too on the river but feel bad about my decision afterwards. If he's value betting pocket jacks on the river in this hand you should put him on your buddy list.

[Brian]

Hi Festus,

Check-raise the Flop. While what the other posters said is true about your either being way ahead or way behind the Button, they failed to take into account the fact that the CO as well as the SB are still in the hand. Quite simply, you can't allow him to take a cheap card off on the Flop with a hand like QT, which has 5 outs to beat you, or KT, which has a gutshot. And, he will be correctly taking one off on the Flop with these hands assuming you do in fact have the best hand, as he'll be getting ~15:1 to call (depending on what the SB does). However, if you raise instead of call, he'll only be getting ~7.5:1, which is only barely enough to call with either hand if you take into account implied odds and hoping there won't be a 3-bet.

Theres a huge pot out there in the center, and you have flopped a strong hand. Do what you can to protect it, not to try to follow a "way behind or way ahead" policy and try to save bets when the Button has you badly beat. Simply put, you're seeing a showdown in this one unless things get really crazy, as the pot is way too large to fold at any point. So, make the most of it and protect/value bet your hand.

-Brian