A few hands for the baby bluffers (long)

[durron597]

I will say this right now; shorthanded I bluff a lot. So I don't consider myself a "baby bluffer" by any means, even though I only play $10+1s. So let's walk through some hands towards the end of my last SnG, all comments are appreciated.

We start with a hand that shows that even if players start out not believing you, you can still pull off some bluffs later:

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($5,325 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($2,823 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 10/images/graemlins/heart.gif,A/images/graemlins/spade.gif ] ($3,072 in chips)
Seat 7: Thy Smiter ($2,910 in chips)
Seat 8: leaf597 ($870 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
KIonizer posts blind ($75), durron597 posts blind ($150).

PRE-FLOP
Thy Smiter folds, leaf597 folds, ThreeProngs folds, KIonizer calls $75, durron597 bets $300, KIonizer calls $300.

FLOP [board cards K/images/graemlins/spade.gif,J/images/graemlins/spade.gif,8/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 bets $600, KIonizer bets $2,373 and is all-in, durron597 folds.

SHOWDOWN
KIonizer wins $3,873

SUMMARY
Dealer: ThreeProngs
Pot: $3,873 | Rake: $0
ThreeProngs loses $0
KIonizer bets $2,823, collects $3,873, net $1,050
durron597 loses $1,050
Thy Smiter loses $0
leaf597 loses $0

Hm. Either I need to work on my table image, or he had KJ, JJ, or KK. So, this hand helps me to establish a good image; too this point I have only shown down good hands, though I have begun stealing long enough ago that BB's preflop call here isn't terrible (though I think it's pretty bad, just not downright awful). Basically, I want to show down that I'm not taking stabs, and I am definitely only getting called when behind (and basically all the time when behind). Great image hand IMO.

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($5,020 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($2,948 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ A/images/graemlins/spade.gif,10/images/graemlins/club.gif ] ($4,347 in chips)
Seat 7: Thy Smiter ($2,685 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
ThreeProngs posts blind ($100), KIonizer posts blind ($200).

PRE-FLOP
durron597 bets $550, Thy Smiter folds, ThreeProngs folds, KIonizer calls $350.

FLOP [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,J/images/graemlins/club.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks.

TURN [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,J/images/graemlins/club.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif,9/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks.

RIVER [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,J/images/graemlins/club.gif,K/images/graemlins/heart.gif,9/images/graemlins/spade.gif,J/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks.

SHOWDOWN
KIonizer shows [ 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif,7/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
durron597 shows [ A/images/graemlins/spade.gif,10/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
durron597 wins $1,200.

SUMMARY
Dealer: Thy Smiter
Pot: $1,200 | Rake: $0
ThreeProngs loses $100
KIonizer loses $550
durron597 bets $550, collects $1,200, net $650
Thy Smiter loses $0

Look at the good little poker player that didn't take a stab when he missed. Maybe you won't check-raise me so much /images/graemlins/grin.gif

------------------------------------

A several hands later after I bust the bubble boy with a blind duel flopped two pair special, and I've also played a few legit hands (betting top pair, etc.) this hand occurs:

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($4,422 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($3,696 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] ($6,882 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
KIonizer posts blind ($150), durron597 posts blind ($300).

PRE-FLOP
ThreeProngs folds, KIonizer calls $150, durron597 checks.

FLOP [board cards 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif,K/images/graemlins/club.gif,9/images/graemlins/heart.gif ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 bets $450, KIonizer folds.

SHOWDOWN
durron597 wins $1,050

SUMMARY
Dealer: ThreeProngs
Pot: $1,050 | Rake: $0
ThreeProngs loses $0
KIonizer loses $300
durron597 bets $750, collects $1,050, net $300

It's important not to get over enthusiastic with your bluffs. I think that having a standard 2/3 pot bet is good, you price out the draws and don't hurt your stack too much when they actually have something.

--------------------------------------

I was considering check-raise bluffing this hand, but the size of this opponent's bet made me think he had a real hand (though I had caught him bluffing before). I ran the clock down on this one.

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($4,422 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($4,346 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ Q/images/graemlins/club.gif,10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] ($6,232 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
KIonizer posts blind ($150), durron597 posts blind ($300).

PRE-FLOP
ThreeProngs calls $300, KIonizer calls $150, durron597 checks.

FLOP [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,4/images/graemlins/club.gif,Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks, ThreeProngs bets $550, KIonizer folds, durron597 folds.

SHOWDOWN
ThreeProngs wins $1,450

SUMMARY
Dealer: ThreeProngs
Pot: $1,450 | Rake: $0
ThreeProngs bets $850, collects $1,450, net $600
KIonizer loses $300
durron597 loses $300

Don't be afraid to abort a planned bluff. I expected this player to bet when checked to, but then he bet a lot more than I was expecting; I would be very surprised if he didn't have an ace.

-----------------------------------------------

I consider this a value bet, not a bluff.

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($5,022 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($4,046 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif,8/images/graemlins/heart.gif ] ($5,932 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
durron597 posts blind ($200), ThreeProngs posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
KIonizer folds, durron597 calls $200, ThreeProngs checks.

FLOP [board cards 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,5/images/graemlins/club.gif,4/images/graemlins/club.gif ]
durron597 bets $600, ThreeProngs folds.

SHOWDOWN
durron597 wins $1,400

SUMMARY
Dealer: KIonizer
Pot: $1,400 | Rake: $0
ThreeProngs loses $400
KIonizer loses $0
durron597 bets $1,000, collects $1,400, net $400

------------------------------------------

Here, he's almost certainly got a small pocket pair, and can't call this bet.

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($7,972 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($1,896 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ] ($5,132 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
durron597 posts blind ($200), ThreeProngs posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
KIonizer folds, durron597 bets $800, ThreeProngs calls $600.

FLOP [board cards A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,3/images/graemlins/club.gif,K/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
durron597 checks, ThreeProngs checks.

TURN [board cards A/images/graemlins/heart.gif,3/images/graemlins/club.gif,K/images/graemlins/spade.gif,K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ]
durron597 bets $1,400, ThreeProngs folds.

SHOWDOWN
durron597 wins $3,400

SUMMARY
Dealer: KIonizer
Pot: $3,400 | Rake: $0
ThreeProngs loses $1,000
KIonizer loses $0
durron597 bets $2,400, collects $3,400, net $1,000

Any comments on any of these hands appreciated.

[durron597]

No comments?

[Fnord]

In the first hand make it t400 pre-flop. I doubt he folds to a min-raise and you almost always have the best hand here.

[durron597]

That wasn't a minraise, that was a raise to T450 total. It's just a display issue; it doesn't factor in blinds.

[parappa]

Thanks for posting these /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I like the idea of showing that you're a reasonable guy by checking down a good (but not nec winning hand), and I like the idea of image maintenance. The one thing that I have difficulty applying to my game at party from most of these is simply stack depth, because the majority of these plays would be all-in for me.

[PrayingMantis]

OK, there are quite a few hands here. Normally I'm too lazy to check out on long sequences of hands, and giving them a deep thought, but since durron has PMed me about it, I'll do it! (I Hope there will be some serious arguments and wars on this thread, so we will have some fun... /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

As a general note, disscussing bluffs is always a bit problematic, because bluffs are so much about a certain read, specific history with an opponent, previous hands, and over all feel (with regard to "online tells", etc). Of course, it is possible to say I don't like this or that bluff, since the conditions are not too good for it, and I don't need more delicate infotmation to say so. But in many marginal cases, it is more complicated.

To the hands:

First hand - looks fine. The only think that could bother me here is the flop - it is too much in the "playing zone" (K+J) which means there's some concrete chance your opponent, which is probably a bit on the loose side, has caught some part of it, and will be willing to go to the felt. Betting is fine when it's checked to you, but this is a case where considering checking behind might be good too.

As to your notes about "great image hand". As I see it, every image is "great", if you know how to use it to your advantage. It's only a question of understanding what image a specific hand (or better: a sequence of hands) has created.

[ QUOTE ]
though I have begun stealing long enough ago that BB's preflop call here isn't terrible

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it this way: stealing later is definitely more profitable than stealing early on. So if you steal too much early on, you a) win small blinds which are not worth much b) turning your image into one that makes it more difficult to steal blinds later on, when they are much bigger and worth more. Only some thoughts.

[ QUOTE ]
Basically, I want to show down that I'm not taking stabs, and I am definitely only getting called when behind (and basically all the time when behind).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know exactly what you mean here, since you did take a stab at this pot, and folded to the check-raise. Another point is, that getting called *only* when behind (i.e, when your opponents are behind), is not a natural thing, and might indicate that you're not bluffing enough (but I don't think so). You should get called, sometimes, when you're behind. Of course you don't want it to happen, but if it never happens, your are probably playing too tight. But it also very much depends on the specific conditions (and surely, a strong player will get called much more when he's ahead, don't get me wrong).

Hand 2:

OK, here you decided not to take a stab. I think I might try betting the turn, or even the river if it's checked up until that point. Depending on my read. Against certain players I wouldn't do it. This guy looks like a PF calling station, so I'm not too afraid anymore of hands he might hold, and if he IS capable of folding Ax (x=garbage) and smallest pairs if he doesn't hit anything (some low buy-in players can't), you can try to push him out. Anyway, I'm sure you know more about him than you did at the previous AT hand.

Hand 3

Well, I think he's the kind of player who simply like seeing flops. Your play is good.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that having a standard 2/3 pot bet is good, you price out the draws

[/ QUOTE ]

In bluffing in cases like these, against fishy calling stations, it's not a question of pricing draws. You don't have a hand, remember. Calling stations will call with their draws, even without odds. Speaking about "pricing draws" make sense only if you have a made hand, OR you are playing against a more sophisticated player, who is actually thinking about what YOU have vs. what HE has vs. the size of the pot, etc. But I agree with yout point that one should not get over-enthusiastic with bluffing too big, so one could get out with enough chips if the other guy wakes up with a hand (in some structure, party for instance, it is more difficult, since many times any reasonable bet/raise is all-in).

OK, that's long enough for one time. I get to the rest of it later on. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[bingledork]

[ QUOTE ]

I was considering check-raise bluffing this hand, but the size of this opponent's bet made me think he had a real hand (though I had caught him bluffing before). I ran the clock down on this one.

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($4,422 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($4,346 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ Q/images/graemlins/club.gif,10/images/graemlins/diamond.gif ] ($6,232 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
KIonizer posts blind ($150), durron597 posts blind ($300).

PRE-FLOP
ThreeProngs calls $300, KIonizer calls $150, durron597 checks.

FLOP [board cards A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif,4/images/graemlins/club.gif,Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks, ThreeProngs bets $550, KIonizer folds, durron597 folds.

SHOWDOWN
ThreeProngs wins $1,450

SUMMARY
Dealer: ThreeProngs
Pot: $1,450 | Rake: $0
ThreeProngs bets $850, collects $1,450I d, net $600
KIonizer loses $300
durron597 loses $300

Don't be afraid to abort a planned bluff. I expected this player to bet when checked to, but then he bet a lot more than I was expecting; I would be very surprised if he didn't have an ace.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this hand at all. The button makes a 1/2 pot bet on the flop after the 2 limpers check to him. I'd make this bet with garbage to represent the ace. What makes you think he has an ace?
You have 2nd pair in a 3-handed game and you check-fold?
This must be read-dependent because it's looks really weak to me.

[chill888]

IMHO 1st hand I think the SIZE of the bet post flop is a mistake.

300 is plenty since it's what you bet preflop. If he has nothing he will probably fold. making it 600 doesn't change much and is wasting valuable chips.

If you are going to give up to a raise then choosing bet size is important

2nd hand, no swing at pot after flop? check is ok though.

3rd hand and further .. got tired.

gl

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

This must be read-dependent because it's looks really weak to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are one hundred percent correct here. I could tell from this player's betting pattern that he would bet small when he had it, and bigger when he didn't. A typical bluff from him would be something like a 250 chip bet into an 800 chip pot. This was a much larger bet from him; I was pretty confident he had the ace.

Also realize he VP$IP three handed on the button. That means he has a stronger hand than usual, which increases the probability of him having an ace in my mind.

[durron597]

Several people have commented about hand #2, where I didn't take a stab. These players were not total morons; I saw evidence throughout the SnG that they were paying attention. Another hand I don't feel like looking for right now, three handed I raise to 800 on the button with K5o. The BB moves in for 3000 total, so I'm getting 3950:2200 to call, and I fold. He types "thought so" into the chat. This player had virtually never reraised me preflop. Also much earlier in the SnG I restole with ATo, and he claimed he was laying down JJ.

The point is, I had enough evidence to show that these players were thinking. I decided to take a hand to show that I wasn't always going to bet if my opponent showed weakness; if I missed a flop I was capable of checking it down.

[golFUR]

Naw, I agree with you there. It's a tempo play as well. If the action has been high while your cards are dry that is a great way to slow it down a little, to 'reset'. We can't see the hands around it but like someone else noted, image maintenance is important.

[PrayingMantis]

To contintue my last post:

hand 4:

The fact that you hit 2nd pair is not a reason, by itself, to check raise him. If you feel he hasn't got a hand, and will fold, than you can do it with any two. People are often thinking too much about their OWN hand when they bluff. Your own hand actually mean very little. It's all about your opponent's behaviour and cards, and sometimes the hand you _represent_.

I don't think this is a specifically good spot for a move, since it looks like there's still a lot of game to play, you have the big stack, he made a rather big bet, and according to your description, he is rather predictable (be careful, though, about this: very few players are really completely predictable.) I'm sure you'll be able to exploit his play in a better spot. So over-all, I don't see anything special about your fold here. Legitimate fold.

hand 5

3 handed SNG play is very very read, dynamics, and situation dependant, so there's not much to say about this hand. It could be good, could be bad. The question should be what is your over all strategy in this 3-handed situation, and it should be a function of both other players' strategies, not only the big-stack you're in the hand against.

One thing that I don't like is the size of your turn bet. What exactly are you representing by this? I think a smaller bet is more in place (~1/2 pot). His reaction won't be different, and you are saving some chips. I'm not sure you are correct when you say "he's almost certainly got a small pocket pair, and can't call this bet". I think you are putting people on specific hands too fast. He called PF, checked behind on the flop, and folded on the turn. It's 3 handed, he's big-stack. Why just small poker pair? You have far from enough information to make this claim.

That's about it. I hope you took 1st. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ilya]

"Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($5,325 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($2,823 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 10,A ] ($3,072 in chips)
Seat 7: Thy Smiter ($2,910 in chips)
Seat 8: leaf597 ($870 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
KIonizer posts blind ($75), durron597 posts blind ($150).

PRE-FLOP
Thy Smiter folds, leaf597 folds, ThreeProngs folds, KIonizer calls $75, durron597 bets $300, KIonizer calls $300.

FLOP [board cards K,J,8 ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 bets $600, KIonizer bets $2,373 and is all-in, durron597 folds."

I would probably check behind on this flop; I think there were just too many ways for your opponent to (feel like he) hit it. Aside from KJ, JJ, and KK, he might well have done what he did with AK, KQ, KT, QJ...all hands that he might have been playing here. Also -- if you can do it for free, why not see if you can make your gutshot or pick up an open-ender?


"Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($5,020 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($2,948 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ A,10 ] ($4,347 in chips)
Seat 7: Thy Smiter ($2,685 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
ThreeProngs posts blind ($100), KIonizer posts blind ($200).

PRE-FLOP
durron597 bets $550, Thy Smiter folds, ThreeProngs folds, KIonizer calls $350.

FLOP [board cards 3,J,K ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks.

TURN [board cards 3,J,K,9 ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks.

RIVER [board cards 3,J,K,9,J ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks.

SHOWDOWN
KIonizer shows [ 6,7 ]
durron597 shows [ A,10 ]
durron597 wins $1,200."

If this guy is gonna call you with 67o, perhaps you should value bet your Ace-high? Just kiddding, but I think you could try a bet on the turn after the second check. But I like the way you played it, too. I do think it can be very useful to show down a hand like this, to convince people that you're not an aggro maniac but just really, really lucky.




"Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($4,422 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($3,696 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ Q,7 ] ($6,882 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
KIonizer posts blind ($150), durron597 posts blind ($300).

PRE-FLOP
ThreeProngs folds, KIonizer calls $150, durron597 checks.

FLOP [board cards 3,K,9 ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 bets $450, KIonizer folds.

SHOWDOWN
durron597 wins $1,050"

Looks good to me. A free card is unlikely to give you the best hand if you're behind, and the flop isn't too coordinated. I guess some people would recommend raising preflop? I wouldn't myself.


"I think that having a standard 2/3 pot bet is good, you price out the draws and don't hurt your stack too much when they actually have something."

Yes, I thought your 2/3 pot bet of 450 into a 600 pot was right on the mark. /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


"Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($4,422 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($4,346 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ Q,10 ] ($6,232 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
KIonizer posts blind ($150), durron597 posts blind ($300).

PRE-FLOP
ThreeProngs calls $300, KIonizer calls $150, durron597 checks.

FLOP [board cards A,4,Q ]
KIonizer checks, durron597 checks, ThreeProngs bets $550, KIonizer folds, durron597 folds."

I would play this the same way. If I had position on him, I might call or raise -- I'm not convinced he has an Ace -- but I think it's too much risk for too little reward here.

"I consider this a value bet, not a bluff.

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($5,022 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($4,046 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 5,8 ] ($5,932 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
durron597 posts blind ($200), ThreeProngs posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
KIonizer folds, durron597 calls $200, ThreeProngs checks.

FLOP [board cards 9,5,4 ]
durron597 bets $600, ThreeProngs folds."

I like the bet, but why do you consider it a value bet? Do you think he's gonna call you with overcards?
I fold this hand preflop, though.


"Here, he's almost certainly got a small pocket pair, and can't call this bet.

Seat 4: ThreeProngs ($7,972 in chips)
Seat 5: KIonizer ($1,896 in chips)
Seat 6: durron597 [ 7,Q ] ($5,132 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
durron597 posts blind ($200), ThreeProngs posts blind ($400).

PRE-FLOP
KIonizer folds, durron597 bets $800, ThreeProngs calls $600.

FLOP [board cards A,3,K ]
durron597 checks, ThreeProngs checks.

TURN [board cards A,3,K,K ]
durron597 bets $1,400, ThreeProngs folds.

SHOWDOWN
durron597 wins $3,400"

I like this play. I agree that his most likely hand is an underpair; plus, even if he was slowplaying a big ace, he now has to at least consider folding. It also helps that this guy is tight (and passive?) (I'm guessing, since you raised him preflop with Q7o).