Is it Correct to Snatch at These?

[parappa]

I do this pretty routinely when short stacked, going all-in at any piece of the flop. Never thought to ask if others agreed with the play. My sense is that I can't wait here. I know the SB has a big stack, but he's likely to bet at it (and call my push) on general principles, so niether his check nor a bet in front will really give me any useful information. I just tend to close my eyes and go for these.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed)

UTG (t630)
Button (t4650)
SB (t2035)
Hero (t685)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, Button folds, SB calls t100, Hero checks.

Flop: 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero bets t485 (All-In), SB calls t485.

Turn: 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

[tallstack]

FWIW, I would go all-in on the flop here every time. If he had pushed on the flop I would call here with the top pair, no kicker hand.

Dave S

[Marcotte]

I think you have to make this play. If I analyzed it correctly, you will blind-out before the other short stack, so you need to win a pot and it's unlikely he has a pair. He's probably calling with an overcard(s), or trapping with QQ+. You just pray its the former and hope you double up.

[patrick dicaprio]

sure you will lose sometimes, or at least I do /images/graemlins/mad.gif but i dont see what choice you have. at least in this instance you have to pair. of course the other say i did this and my opponent had pocket kings. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Pat

[durron597]

You played it exactly as I would.

[citanul]

A much more interesting question is if you do this if the flop comes say, QJ8, KT8, A82, etc, where you don't have what in almost all situations here you expect to be the best hand anyway.

It's incredibly likely that top pair is good heads up, but the play becomes more interesting to talk about when you hit bottom or mid pair I think.

FWIW, I play this hand exactly as you did.

citanul

[Gator]

you raise an interesting point - that being said, I think, in this situation, you need to push when you hit any part of the flop - assuming other player isn't slowplaying an overpair, you have to bank on the flop not hitting that player about 70% of the time. Do you agree that pushing with any piece of the flop, in this situation/with this chip count, is the right move?

[parappa]

[ QUOTE ]
you raise an interesting point - that being said, I think, in this situation, you need to push when you hit any part of the flop - assuming other player isn't slowplaying an overpair, you have to bank on the flop not hitting that player about 70% of the time. Do you agree that pushing with any piece of the flop, in this situation/with this chip count, is the right move?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I go for it on top and middle pair. My thought is that the combined possibility of him having a higher pair along with his likely 6 outs if he doesn't makes bottom pair bad. I think middle pair is 50/50 and top pair is a must-play. But since 50/50 is obviously good enough in this situation, I push middle pair.

Of course, against an aggressive oppoenent, playing bottom pair "cautiously" usually means check/folding it and I'm not sure how happy I am about that when it happens.

[SmileyEH]

I would go all in with any pair.

-SmileyEH

[citanul]

Gator,

Personally, unless the flop is something like AKx and I have the x and I know for damn sure that my opponent isn't playing without an A or a K, with the chip counts given, I think I'm pushing with any part of any board heads up. As you said, the likelihood that your opponent as missed is huge. Better yet, the likelihood he has missed and will now call with a couple overcards and give you a double up a lot of the time is big too, which I like.

Perhaps my original reply was a bit too hasty. In situations where the chip count is this dire, you've got to push with any part, I agree. I don't think it's viable to try to wait for the other player to bust. If we make either our stack or both short stacks a little less horribly short my question becomes more interesting I guess.

Thanks for the reply Gator,

citanul

[golFUR]

Just to play devil's advocate I'll go ahead and argue the other side. Everyone seems to support the idea of going all in on the flop when you get any piece of it.

[ QUOTE ]
I know the SB has a big stack, but he's likely to bet at it (and call my push) on general principles, so niether his check nor a bet in front will really give me any useful information.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big stack completes from SB against a short stack BB. The short stack BB flops top pair 8s with no kicker and not much in the way of draws... I was going to make a case one way but the logic, as I played it through in my head, suggested a relatively simple answer: It doesn't matter.

If there is any way at all you could see yourself folding this hand then yes, your decision on the flop makes a bit of a difference. You guessed, and I think most people would support it, that he's committed no matter what. That he even completed the small blind says he is probably ready to call you all in. He could have anything from an A or K to a small pair to a monster hoping to trap. So if he is going to call no matter what you have only your guess as to whether your 8s will hold up and how comfortable you are being an even smaller stack.

Personally, I could fold even there... Knowing he'll call no matter what there is no specific reason not to see the turn for free. If he then bets an amount to set me all in I can decide at that point if I still like my 8s, want to double from the small blind, did he trap a monster? Given that he'll call at any point, given that your hand is made at the flop and can only improve from there, given that you have no idea what he has and whether or not a free card will help or hurt... There is no reason not to go all in immediately, there is a very small reason to go ahead and check behind and all in the turn or later...

[stupidsucker]

I push with middle or top pair almost always in this situation.