Does this sound like cheating to you!?!?!

[HigherAce]

Ok now im having a problem with the burn cards. I mean i know there done so no ones cheating but explain how you couldnt cheat after the burn cards? and if i have 55 and both of my 5's are still in the deck(in this example) and they both happen to land on the burn cards this means that not only should i ahve hit those cards on the board but i was dealt a hand that is imposible to improve. How is that in itself not cheating me. Not just me but everyone involved in the hand. How is taking two cards and making them not even a possibility to see them fair for anyoen at the table. what is the point? now not only do you have to hope to hit your card but you have to hope its not landing on one of the burn cards. Which is infact the next one that should be layed on the board. I just dont get how taking 2 cards outa the deck does anything but cheat everyone whos playing. example---i flopped the straight with 57 board comes 689(burn)2(burn)7. only guy in with me turns over 102. so now instead of going through 5 cards for the flop its seven in which the last two never should of even been seen. someone please explain this to me. because with this kinda hand happening i do now feel like i was cheated(maybe not by card tricks or anything but by that the first burn card shoulda been the turn and the 2 shoulda been the river. I just dont get it

[random]

the bottom card of the deck has no chance of improving your hand, either.

i don't know why burning cards is the custom. maybe it makes it harder to stack the deck. or maybe it is to cheat you out of your flopped straights.

[chesspain]

Don't you know drugs will ruin your mind?

[Iplayragstoo]

Wow...your way to smart to be playing in these small sad home games..you should move up to no limit casino poker right away. They still waste those two cards in those games, but someone who has thought this out so well should be able to overcome that without a problem. If you want some practice we could lock up a few $$$ and try some heads up - just for practice of course

[HigherAce]

I dont care about that particular hand, it was just an example. Was just wondering how it keeps people from cheating. I mean if you had the skill to stack the deck would having to put a space between them be that difficult? just wondering /images/graemlins/confused.gif just makes more sense to me to let the cards fall how they should. I mean hell why not reshuffle after the flop and the turn then.

[DimensionPresident]

Here's something to think about that may keep you up at night...

What if your third or fourth five doesn't come up because they're deeper in the deck and if you don't burn 3 cards it won't get there?

[HigherAce]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow...your way to smart to be playing in these small sad home games..you should move up to no limit casino poker right away. They still waste those two cards in those games, but someone who has thought this out so well should be able to overcome that without a problem. If you want some practice we could lock up a few $$$ and try some heads up - just for practice of course

[/ QUOTE ]


Your missing my point was wondering how it prevented cheaters if they knew there were gonna be burn cards. Guess what, thats why I put it here BECAUSE it is just like the casino's. Captain Obvious strikes again. BTW Speaking of locking up open wide /images/graemlins/shocked.gif and lock your lips around my....

[B4TTERY]

Decaf, dude....decaf.

[Eihli]

I'm going to ignore a lot of things in this post and try to give you the simple answer you were looking for. If someone marked the cards, burning the card on top of the deck prevents them from knowing what the next card turned over will be.

[Saint_D]

The point of the burn is to foil people who palm cards. It's not foolproof, but I am told that it makes it harder. In a casino with a camera, it makes several dealer collusion tricks just hard enough that you can spot them on camera.

This is hearsay. I don't know if it's really true. I would worry more about false cuts and dealing off the bottom of the deck. Which I don't worry about at all in my home game.

[jmark]

HigherAce, I'm sorry that you're upset about the burn card thing but if you just think about it logically it makes sense the key to remember is that the dealer shuffles the cards so that they are random well not random but mostly random then the dealer deals all the hole cards to everyone now remember that the deck is random what if the dealer just dealt one card to somebody then shuffled again then dealt the next hole card and shuffled etc etc since the cards are random it doesn't matter whether you continually shuffle or not again what if the dealer dealt every 4th card instead of every card you'd still get the same hand because they're random cards and now what if the dealer burns a couple random cards between the flop and turn and river nothing changes right? because the cards are random so the order that you deal them makes no difference you might as well as yell at the dealer for shuffling 4 times and not 3 if they would have shuffled 3 you would have hit a royal flush with another guy dealt quads but since they shuffled 4 times all you got is bottom pair this time but don't get mad it's all ok and what about the guy to your left who just sat out a hand what if he was in the hand you would have made the nut straight while some other guy had a set of aces lots of money lost there but you can't blame him for taking a piss can you now what if all the cards were marked and some guy could just look at the back of the cards and know what that card was he goes 200 bets on the turn because he sees his miracle gutshot straight sitting on the top of the deck in the dealer's hand but oh no the dealer just took that top card and discarded it and dealt the next card in the deck which was a gigantic brick damn what a waste of time marking all those cards

[B4TTERY]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's something to think about that may keep you up at night...

What if your third or fourth five doesn't come up because they're deeper in the deck and if you don't burn 3 cards it won't get there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only did this keep me up at night, but--perhaps more importantly--it alerted me to a larger problem:

What if the 4 other cards that give me my nut straight flush were found at four random locations in the deck instead of on the flop, turn, or river where I want them?

[Eihli]

Good post, but there is only one punctuation mark throughout that entire paragraph.

[HigherAce]

ok...true true I put to much bs into my original post. Alls I wanted to know was how the burn cards keep people from cheating if they know theres gonna be burn cards. I know that when you make a hand you wouldn't of made it if there were no burn cards.I know it works both ways. Was just trying to give examples of what I was thinking of. Was just wondering. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DimensionPresident]

Also, it would be easier for the dealer to flash another player the top card than it is to flash second from the top.

[Wesley N]

Wow,
There was so much humor and irony on these posts, however, I can see that its also a very informative forum... I learned more about the "burn" concept than I knew.
I was wondering something that came up last night in our little Home Tourny, perhaps someone can give me a "valid" answer so I can relay to our group....
Why do we deal to a player who steps away from the table for a hand or two? I know that when He/She is up to act the cards are mucked but I could not explain why we had to still deal to the seat?
The argument came b/c many who played last night are used to ring games where one can go in and out and never worry about cards being dealt.
--Wes

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do we deal to a player who steps away from the table for a hand or two? I know that when He/She is up to act the cards are mucked but I could not explain why we had to still deal to the seat?


[/ QUOTE ]

During an infrequent appearance of mine at an NL cash game a short while ago, I noticed that at least a couple of players would routinely deal cards to an empty seat if someone was away from the table. When it was my deal and I refused to deal cards to an empty seat when the player had just gotten up to go to the bathroom, two of the others became agitated. Although they couldn't verbalize why they were upset when I asked, I realize now it was because they must have thought I had somehow disrupted the karmic distribution of the cards.

[Wesley N]

How did you end up resolving the issue, b/c we were having a similar problem, (with players getting aggrevated) saying it would speed up the game to just not deal them at all while they stepped away.
Since I couldn't argue for or against this "Karmic" idea, I just abided by their request but felt uneasy knowing that Major Tournaments such as the WSOP games do in fact deal out to empty seats, but I couldn't explain why?

[Riverboat Willie]

ok folks, i'm not sure how much the burn question actually got answered, so i'll adress that and the empty seat question.

Burn Cards: Forget anything about any postion of any card in the deck. They are all random untill exposed or dealt to a player. The reason you burn a card just before flipping a community card, is so that the deck will not effect any of the betting. For example, assume there was no burning. Say you have Kh 2h and the flop comes jh 3c 5h. One opponent makes a large bet, and you stop to consider your next move. You look at the deck and see the top card has a crease in the upper left corner. You remember from earlier that you accidentally creased the Ace of hearts when you lost with it earlier. You now know, before having to call, that you will turn the nut flush. With a burn card, you may know what card is not coming up (say you notice the burn is going to be that ace) but you can't tell ahead of time what will be coming up. That is the sole reason for burning a card each time you turn over community cards.

Dealing to an Empty Seat: You must always deal to an away player, because that player may come back at any time. This also makes sure that each player around the table recieves their proper card (even though they're all random) If an away player comes back before the action is on him/her and they are automatically check/folded, they may sit and pick up their hand and play it. You can choose not to be dealt in if you say so when you leave, but it disqualifies you for any table wide bad beat jackpots at live poker rooms. The only advantage you have to telling the dealer not to deal you in, is that the game will go faster for those who are still seated.

Just my $0.02. Hope it helped

Mark "Riverboat Willie" Nelson

[Nate Finch]

Willie had it exactly right. Let me summarize.

Burn: Prevents using marked cards. Since the only one you can see until betting is finished is one that won't be shown, you can't make much use out of marked cards.

Dealing to empty seats: They can come back before they are folded out of the hand.


The whole "but I would have made my trips without the burn" is a false argument. Whenever you deal from a properly shuffled deck, the results are random. Doesn't matter if it's the top card, bottom card, middle card, whatever. Burning a card is the same as if that card were on the bottom of the deck. You won't see it either way.

It's not cheating, you're not getting screwed, you have 100% exactly the same chance to hit your hand with or without the burn card.

-Nate

[Bulldog]

You win one of two prizes:

a) dumbest post in history of 2+2
b) best troll post ever

I think it's (b).

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
I just dont get it

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you don't.

[Easy E]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just dont get it

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you don't.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't make myself READ it!

[bingledork]

I was dealt 55 in a home game where they burned cards and I didn't flop a set either, just like you.

That SAME DAY I was playing on Party Poker where the DON'T burn cards and this time I DID flop a set with 55.

So there you go. Proof positive. My home game is cheating and Party Poker is on the level.

[jmark]

Not exactly on topic, but somewhat related.

My biggest pet peeve when playing blackjack is when someone does something they're "not supposed to do," like standing on 8, etc.

Then the dealer somehow pulls 21 out of their ass and the table goes on and on how that person should have hit and they would have taken that nasty 7 away from the dealer.

I really hate when they berate bad players like that. Not only is it rude, but it's mathematically incorrect.

[Jaraim]

There's a very, very simply question to the question of "Why do we burn?"

It should be blatantly obvious to almost everyone here... I wonder why it's not. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Wesley N]

Thank You,
Willie and Nate especially, the summarizations helped. Much appreciation for the time and explaination.
Wes

[LetsRock]

First of all, there are 3 cards burned (in Holdem and Omaha) not 2.

The concept is to prevent somebody from knowing the next card that will come into play. Yes, someone reading the backs of the cards still has information that other's don't, but it is far less efective information than knowing what is coming next.

Don't get caught up in worrying that the burn cards are potentially hurting you - the cards are still coming off the deck in a random order, unless you have a mechanic in the game.

[Mojo Tooth]

[ QUOTE ]
If someone marked the cards, burning the card on top of the deck prevents them from knowing what the next card turned over will be.

[/ QUOTE ]


Bingo.

[Jim Kuhn]

Is one punctuation mark too many for a paragraph?

[PITTM]

i read that and i literally thought i misread it. worst post ever. i think youre the guy i played with the other day who insisted that we not burn cards until we kicked him out.

rj

[HigherAce]

I just wanted to know why they burn cards.I knew it was to prevent cheating but i didnt know how...wasnt thinking about how someone could of marked or bent them. Thx for the answers fellas.

[Kaz The Original]

The actual reason, which must have been mentioned by now, is to avoid marked cards.

[QuadsOverQuads]

Simple reason:

The function of the burn card is to hide the backside of the card beneath it until the betting round is completed, just in case someone's marking cards. This prevents a cheat from even potentially getting "advance notice" as to what the next card on the board is going to be.

As to your "card I wanted ended up in the burn" complaint ... well, might as well argue that the card you wanted ended up in your neighbor's hand ("if only we played 9-handed instead of 10-handed, I would've won!"). Bottom line: the cards fall as they do, and you need to learn to play accordingly.

q/q

[jimymat]

Pocket 5's are not a very good hand. You should have folded.

[RiverTheNuts]

OMG liek this 1 time i got 2 6 ... i was liek oh jeez this is a bad hand.... but then my friend dealt me a 345, and I was liek OMG LOLZZZZ... but then he was all like, wait, im gonna burn a card and he dealt an ace, and then another ace, and some [censored] had pocket aces... can you believe that [censored]!!?! i had a straight he shoulda folded what the fuxxors? if we didnt burn cards i woulda won... burning cards is bullshit!!!

</sarcasm>

[dakine]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's something to think about that may keep you up at night...

What if your third or fourth five doesn't come up because they're deeper in the deck and if you don't burn 3 cards it won't get there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for making that point. If you're going to worry about what the Burn card is, you should not be playing poker. You should be concentrating on what you think!...your opponents have. "Rotsa Ruck" /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Richard Tanner]

We burn cards to prevent the next card to come from being visible to those still in the hand.

Cody

[dr. klopek]

if the burn card isn't one of your outs, it increases your odds of hitting your cards. Whoa. Crazy huh? the cards are random buddy, get over it. one of these things would happen without burn cards: you win, you lose, it's easier for someone to cheat. now that you can't blame cheating, I guess you'll just have to learn to play poker well. Lesson #1: 55 is NOT that good of a hand. At all.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok now im having a problem with the burn cards. I mean i know there done so no ones cheating but explain how you couldnt cheat after the burn cards? and if i have 55 and both of my 5's are still in the deck(in this example) and they both happen to land on the burn cards this means that not only should i ahve hit those cards on the board but i was dealt a hand that is imposible to improve. How is that in itself not cheating me. Not just me but everyone involved in the hand. How is taking two cards and making them not even a possibility to see them fair for anyoen at the table. what is the point? now not only do you have to hope to hit your card but you have to hope its not landing on one of the burn cards. Which is infact the next one that should be layed on the board. I just dont get how taking 2 cards outa the deck does anything but cheat everyone whos playing. example---i flopped the straight with 57 board comes 689(burn)2(burn)7. only guy in with me turns over 102. so now instead of going through 5 cards for the flop its seven in which the last two never should of even been seen. someone please explain this to me. because with this kinda hand happening i do now feel like i was cheated(maybe not by card tricks or anything but by that the first burn card shoulda been the turn and the 2 shoulda been the river. I just dont get it

[/ QUOTE ]



OMFG ROFLMFAO

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Your missing my point was wondering how it prevented cheaters if they knew there were gonna be burn cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Run on sentence and ?????????????

[ QUOTE ]
Guess what, thats why I put it here BECAUSE it is just like the casino's. Captain Obvious strikes again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Captain super-doesnt-make-any-sense-whatsoever strikes again.

[www.portal2poker.com]

Why play 5-5. best is to skip them.

[GizmoDogg]

[ QUOTE ]
(extreme run-on sentence truncated) ...damn what a waste of time marking all those cards

[/ QUOTE ]
Best.Post.Ever. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[2planka]

This is a classic.

[ScottTheFish]

Here's a gem you guys will like: In a home game I play several of the guys will burn, lay out the flop, burn, lay the turn face down, burn, lay the river face down.

So when they deal the flop, they just deal all 5 cards, with the turn and river face down. I'm confident there are no cheats in our game, but geez that would be card marker's paradise.

When I ask them what's the point of burning a card when you're going to lay the next card out on the table, they kind of give me a funny look and do it the same way the next time. Dumb.

[Jaquen H'gar]

This happened with several dealers last week in my first visit to a new home game. I kept my mouth shut but only because I didn't want to rub anybody wrong and I didn't want to look like I knew what I was talking about. Otherwise, it irritated me as what's the point?

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why do we deal to a player who steps away from the table for a hand or two? I know that when He/She is up to act the cards are mucked but I could not explain why we had to still deal to the seat?


[/ QUOTE ]

During an infrequent appearance of mine at an NL cash game a short while ago, I noticed that at least a couple of players would routinely deal cards to an empty seat if someone was away from the table. When it was my deal and I refused to deal cards to an empty seat when the player had just gotten up to go to the bathroom, two of the others became agitated. Although they couldn't verbalize why they were upset when I asked, I realize now it was because they must have thought I had somehow disrupted the karmic distribution of the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you did this in my game, you would be asked to leave and probably not invited back. We deal to the empty seat so that the missing player can play his hand if he returns to the game before action gets to him. If he's not back, the hand is killed.

Simple enough. Why wouldn't you deal to that player? Mess up the karmic distribution of the cards? Why do people not believe the cards are random and worry so much about might have beens.

Regards,

T

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
During an infrequent appearance of mine at an NL cash game a short while ago, I noticed that at least a couple of players would routinely deal cards to an empty seat if someone was away from the table. When it was my deal and I refused to deal cards to an empty seat when the player had just gotten up to go to the bathroom, two of the others became agitated. Although they couldn't verbalize why they were upset when I asked, I realize now it was because they must have thought I had somehow disrupted the karmic distribution of the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you did this in my game, you would be asked to leave and probably not invited back. We deal to the empty seat so that the missing player can play his hand if he returns to the game before action gets to him. If he's not back, the hand is killed. Simple enough. Why wouldn't you deal to that player?


[/ QUOTE ]

Simple enough? Why would I deal cards to someone who is walking down the hall to go to the bathroom, when I know he won't be back in time to play his cards in a six-handed game. I know the cards are random; it sounds like the others in this game did not believe that. Are you saying that someone who refused to deal cards to an empty chair wouldn't be invited back because all of the fish got their gills in an uproar. Maybe when I start seeing players in online cash games getting dealt cards despite sitting out I'll consider dealing to an empty seat being anything other than stupid.

[Spook]

The fact is that sometimes players do make it back to play their hands and they have been paying the blinds when they should.
Think of it another way. Is it worse to have to deal and kill a hand, or to not deal a hand and leave someone out when they have paid the blinds for the round?
I think it would be to deal someone out who is paying their blinds when they aren't in the blinds and are away from the table for a minute.
So then is it worse to deal and kill two hands than to have a player dealt out? Three hands?
Where is the limit. Four hands?

Is it better to let 40 guilty men go free if it prevents an innocent man from going to jail?

[GMan42]

jmark--

Sorry about your broken keyboard. As a courtesy, I've supplied these for you to cut/paste into your post--

...,,.,,..,,.!,...?....,,.:...?,..,--..,.!

[EarlCat]

[ QUOTE ]
How is taking two cards and making them not even a possibility to see them fair for anyoen at the table. what is the point? now not only do you have to hope to hit your card but you have to hope its not landing on one of the burn cards. Which is infact the next one that should be layed on the board. I just dont get how taking 2 cards outa the deck does anything but cheat everyone whos playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) A random card is a random card is a random card. Your magic card had just as much chance landing as a burn card, a turn card, or the bottom card on the deck. Burning one card or ten cards or no cards does not change your odds one bit.

2) The reason you burn a card before the flop, turn, or river is to help protect from marked decks. If a player knows what the next card delt is going to be, he's got an unfair advantage. Of course knowing what card isn't next is still an advantage, but not nearly as big.