First hand, calling post-flop all in -- crazy, or crazy like a fox?

[ThorGoT]

After a bad run at higher levels, made the +EV move to drop down to lower levels -- +EV because the pace of losses will be lower, if nothing else. My real desire was to go all in on the first hand *pre*-flop, but when I got some cards I resisted. Not for long, however:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

CO (t800)
Button (t800)
SB (t800)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t15, <font color="666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises to t75</font>, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t75, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t60, UTG folds.

Flop: (t250) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets t725 (All-In)</font>, Button folds, Hero calls t725 (All-In).

Turn: (t1700) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1700) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1700


After the hand, I discussed at length how it is important to go all in on a flush draw. I was being ironic. I did not discuss (because, to be honest, I did not consider when calling the all-in) the value of the gutshot straight draw and the two overcards.

Assuming you cared about the money, anyone play this hand differently?

[Roman]

I dont think you mean ironic, and I call depending on my read, if he does this with like AJ or A9, the call is pretty easy. If he is capable of only doing this with sets and 2p, you must fold.

[hurlyburly]

I wouldn't have called the all-in (but may have raised all-in with TPTK and a flush draw), but what really counts is how the table responded after that hand. I would expect you had a field day getting check/called down to the river when you had top hand, and were probably able to pull off some successful semi-bluffs. Party is famous for the river straights, so I don't think that was a bad play.

[DeuceKicker]

It sounds like you're saying you'd like to go all-in pre-flop just on general principle. I don't understand why.

If you wanted(?) to go all-in on the flop, you should have bet out, not checked. Once MP2 pushed, I would have folded. Up to this point you've only committed T60. All-in this early on a draw seems pretty bad.

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like you're more into the adrenaline rush than playing solid poker. (Then again, what do I know... maybe calling the all-in *is* solid poker.)

[DeuceKicker]

How can you have a read? This is the first hand of the tourney.

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you have a read? This is the first hand of the tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for me I wouldn't be in the 1st hand of tourney without a read on some opponents (ie. tracking software)

[cowpie]

That's such an easy fold and I can't understand why you called. Lesson #1, don't call all ins unless you have a VERY good hand if you're risking a big portion of your stack. Lesson #2, some other day.

[DeuceKicker]

That's a good point. Up till now I've been playing micro-limit ring games, and PT is just about useless for histories because there are so many new players. I can go weeks and never see the same person twice. (It is, however, great for finding leaks in your own game.)

I think the player pool for SnGs is much smaller. I played about 150 limit SnGs and saw many people multiple times

[NotMitch]

I think this is a fold preflop.


If I misclicked and called I would fold to flop all in.

If you put a gun to my head and told me I had to get it all in on the flop I would push, calling an all in there is really bad.

FWIW I'd wager the pusher has AA with no spade.

[betgo]

I would call preflop with the big suited connector and 3-way action.

I would probably fold to the allin. If someone made a smaller bet, I might checkraise allin.

[Marcotte]

Against a one pair (&lt;QQ) he's a favorite. He has 18 outs total if hitting a K or Q will win.


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=533527
pokenum -h ks qs - as jh -- 9s 6s jd
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9s 6s Jd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Qs 551 55.66 439 44.34 0 0.00 0.557
As Jh 439 44.34 551 55.66 0 0.00 0.443

It's even better if the other guy doesn't have the As
However, he is in big trouble against TPTK and a flush draw, a set, or two pair.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=533533
pokenum -h ks qs - as js -- 9s 6s jd
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9s 6s Jd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Qs 267 26.97 723 73.03 0 0.00 0.270
As Js 723 73.03 267 26.97 0 0.00 0.730

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=533534
pokenum -h ks qs - 6d 6c -- 9s 6s jd
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9s 6s Jd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Qs 326 32.93 664 67.07 0 0.00 0.329
6c 6d 664 67.07 326 32.93 0 0.00 0.671

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=533538
pokenum -h ks qs - jc 9c -- 9s 6s jd
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 9s 6s Jd
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Qs 419 42.32 571 57.68 0 0.00 0.423
Jc 9c 571 57.68 419 42.32 0 0.00 0.577


I would raise big (not all-in) or check-raise all-in with this hand, but I don't think I would call an all-in early in the tournament.

[Fnord]

Let's say this is marginal +EV. The Gap Concept dictates that you should fold here and avoid these marginal situations for your entire stack. However, given that he can just jump into another SnG if he busts does the Gap Concept no longer apply from a $/hour perspective if you think this call is close or marginally +EV?

[ThorGoT]

Opponent had AsJx, for TPTK and a backdoor flush draw. Obviously I made the straight and won. To be honest, my real intent was to make what I thought of as a stupid play, suck out (hopefully), and see what it did to table image. And, oh, how it affected table image. To my surprise, *I* was the one later banned for chat abuse. Doesn't Party Poker know that commanding other players, as the big stack to whom all must listen, to "CALL" "GO ALL IN" and "GO ALL IN NOW" is meant to be amusing -- not illegitimate table commentary?

Anyway, Fnord, your question is interesting, as the biggest stack, what I like to think of as good play (I reserve idiotic, non-self-consciously -EV plays for higher tables), and, shall we say, interesting table image (with enough chips not to *need* to bluff at the blinds and avoid being called) got me to second place. I guess one way to look at your question would be whether you would pay $20+2 to enter a $10+1 tournament with twice everyone else's chip stack (if so, it was the right call, as there was definitely *some* chance -- even against two pair or trips -- that I would pull out the win).

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
Opponent had AsJx, for TPTK and a backdoor flush draw. Obviously I made the straight and won. To be honest, my real intent was to make what I thought of as a stupid play, suck out (hopefully), and see what it did to table image.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you got halfway there, but your table image exists mostly in your own head, in most SnG's nobody notices/cares.