A stupid Brit baseball question

[Lori]

Just a quick question as this occured in the bottom of the ninth in both the Oakland and the LA game last night, and happens daily somewhere.

When a player is being intentionally walked at the end of a tied game, the pitcher seems to throw it harder than I thought they would.

Why doesn't the player being walked swing at the ball four pitch?
I know it's not going to hurt the pitcher very much, but it still seems a move that you might as well make.

Edit: I don't mean swing to try and hit it, just go around to make him throw another pitch.

Lori

[Gallopin Gael]

I was at the A's game last night. A baseball fans dream game, great defense, good pitching (untill the HR to tie it), some nice offense and a win in the bottom of the 9th.

They throw it harder that you probably thought they would because the ball is still live. With a man on third and less than 2 outs the pitcher needs to get the ball to the catcher and not throw the ball away. It's probably easier for him to "pitch" it normally than actually try to soft toss it in there. Also, if the guy on 3rd is fast enough, he could try for a steal, (not that that was going to happen in Oakland, where they don't steal, sacrificing runners is a cardinal sin, and Erubiel Durazo, the DH, was on 3rd). They didn't call in the pinch runner till the bases were juiced.

As far as swinging, the M's were on their 12th pitcher of the night (ok, only their 5th) and he had only faced one batter (Jermaine Dye). Looking at the box score, he only threw 12 pitches and only 3 strikes. 8 of the balls were the IBBs and 2 of those strikes were Dye's ground out and Crosby's GW Sac Fly. So while trying to tire out the pitcher and get him deep into the pitch count is a sound strategy, with reliever that haven't thrown more than 2 pitches in the game doesn't make sense. If Moyer had still been pitching in the 9th, or a reliever that was in the 30-40 pitch count range, then the play would probably have a more positive expectation, but probably not enough to justify having a 3-1 count with runners on the corners. Who knows what Bob Melvin does then, maybe he pitches to Scutaro?

[Smackdab]

I understand the logic here Lori......why not try to wear the pitcher out. By the bottom of the ninth or so, this is a situation where there is a relief pitcher in the game and not the starter. Your not going to wear a guy out by swinging at an extra pitch or two in this situation. The relief pitcher is a specialist who is will probably only throw one inning or perhaps just a batter or two. Not to mention how ridiculous a professional baseball player would look swinging at something that far out of the strike zone. These guys do have egos after all.

[bosoxfan]

There was a thread about this in relation to Barry Bonds last week in other topics I'd link it for you but have no idea how. It was "baseball strategy question" started by Cubswin.

[Easy E]

and get a weak grounder.


From a psychological standpoint, this might be interesting. Get a hot-headed pitcher, maybe you could set him off to screw up a throw?

I'd like to see it happen now! Preferably a playoff game.

[BNFwGef]

You wouldn't swing at an intentional ball in this case (the only case where one is justified in swinging at an intentional ball would be during a hit-and-run play and even then it is questionable). The goal here if I understand it is to tire the pitcher, or perhaps cause him to throw a wild pitch on the next one. What you are actually accomplishing here is swinging the count towards the pitchers favor (3-1 count if swinging at ball 4). This may change the defensive strategy towards pitching to you, an out is better than a baserunner, and i can always walk the next guy. I think the best reason not to swing here is if you actually hit the ball you probably had to step on the plate to get to the pitch and you would then be out on a dead ball which can't do your team any good. In summary, there is probably little risk involved with swinging at an intentional ball, but still there is much less reward.

[bosoxfan]

The main problem is if you swing at the 4th ball, can you guess where the 5th pitch is going? My guess would be right in your ear.

[Smackdab]

In the case where Bonds is getting walked every 5th time up this strategy makes sense. Starters/setup men and closers are all in on this party. Be a nice message to send the opposing manager........... gonna walk my guy at least I'm gonna make you pay by throwing an additional pitch or two. Heck, you may even be able to induce them to pitching to him if you make the count 3-2. Almost makes it a +EV situation for them to do so.

[Smackdab]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the best reason not to swing here is if you actually hit the ball you probably had to step on the plate to get to the pitch and you would then be out on a dead ball which can't do your team any good

[/ QUOTE ]

Brings back a memory. I was coaching a little league team when in the last inning they have runners on first and third, two out and the best hitter coming up. I know, bush to intentioally walk a kid in little league but my little guys had given their all and were in position to win and I wanted to give them the best oppurtunity to do so. Count gets to 3-0. Sure enough on ball 4 the kid reaches out to hit the ball.....makes contact and actually hits a rope. As he rounds first and the tying run is crossing the plate I notice the umpire in front of the plate waving his arms, pointing at the plate and giving the out sign. If memopry serves ........... we had to call the police to get that umpire safely out of the park.

[BNFwGef]

[ QUOTE ]
Heck, you may even be able to induce them to pitching to him if you make the count 3-2. Almost makes it a +EV situation for them to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you vastly overestimate barry bonds ability to hit the baseball. If the goal was to walk him in the first place, he's not getting a waste high fastball over the plate on the payoff pitch, hes getting something pretty unhittable. Bonds, like all big offensive producers, makes his money in situations where walking him isnt an option, then if he builds up a hitters count, he'll make you pay for the pitch you have to throw him. But on a 3-2 where you were going to walk him anyway, I may just do what the BoSox fan suggest and put the next one in his earhole, see if he swings at the INSIDE intentional ball.

[Ed Miller]

Edit: I don't mean swing to try and hit it, just go around to make him throw another pitch.

If I saw someone do that, I would consider it unsportsmanlike. I assume that's why it never happens.

[tubbyspencer]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I don't mean swing to try and hit it, just go around to make him throw another pitch.

If I saw someone do that, I would consider it unsportsmanlike. I assume that's why it never happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's as silly as saying intentionally walking Bonds in the first place is "unsportsmanlike". It would just be a part of the game. (Still wouldn't mean it was good strategy - but no way would it be unsportsmanlike.)

[GuyOnTilt]

That's as silly as saying intentionally walking Bonds in the first place is "unsportsmanlike".

No, it's not. If a batter intentionally swung at an intentional ball four, there's be some serious beef. The next pitch would most likely be a bit high, a bit fast, and a bit inside. Benches would clear and players would be pissed, and rightly so. Nobody with any baseball experience would consider intentionally whiffing at one in that situation.

GoT

[tubbyspencer]

[quote Nobody with any baseball experience would consider intentionally whiffing at one in that situation.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

That might be true. But it's still not unsportsmanlike. Intentionally throwing at a hitter when you might lay a Dickie Thon on him(Yes - I'm an Astros fan from the 80's), now THAT could be considered unsportsmanlike. Just because it happens all the time doesn't make it "sportsmanlike".

What exactly is "unsportsmanlike" (not "goofy", not "bad strategy", not "unimaginable", but "unsportsmanlike") about the idea of swinging at the fourth intentional ball/

Would it be OK to swing at the second? (making the count 1-1)/

Tell me your definition of unsportsmanlike, and then how this fits into it. Maybe we have different defintions, and this all semantics. (Or maybe I'm right.)

[Philuva]

I remember Bo Jackson did swing at an intentional ball and almost hit it out. It was caught by the OF at the warning track. Bo's manager was not pleased.

[MicroBob]

In the current situation it strikes me as unlikely that they would throw a fastball at his ear.
I believe there was a runner at 3rd in the 9th inning afterall. you don't want one to get away.


this is an idea that had never occured to me before.
I have seen well over 1,000 live baseball games and after awhile you think you've pretty much seen it all.

to be honest though, I'm really not certain exactly what you gain by swinging and intentionally missing when it's 3-0. just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.


They throw the ball hard because there are runners on that they need to be cautious of....and it helps the pitcher stay more in rhythm. sometimes if they lob it up there they have a tendency to throw it away because that is not the way they were throwing it previously.

[mrbaseball]

[ QUOTE ]
If I saw someone do that, I would consider it unsportsmanlike. I assume that's why it never happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how do you feel about the old Don Drysdale approach? Figuring it was stupid to throw the 4 pitches for an intentional walk he would just plunk the guy. Very efficient /images/graemlins/smile.gif