A couple of 2/4 and 3/6 Party Poker Questions

[JimRivett]

But first some background. I've played the game for a little over 30 years, just socially, for fun and entertainment, and I believe that I am ahead over that period of time. I know I am for the past couple of years because I have kept accurate records. I play mid limit in the Los Angeles area casinos.

Because I am unable (business has suddenly picked up and I'm quite busy now) to play live now, I resorted to playing on the internet, starting at the beginning of August. Started at .50/1.00, moved to 1/2and then to 2/4 when I played over 10,000 hands, a few weeks ago I moved to 3/6 where I have played 10,000 hand (isn't internet fun and addictive). I've been profitable at all levels, and yes I have PokerTracker.

OK here are the questions, all refer to Party Poker.

While I find the 3/6 games beatable, they seem to have a larger percent of better players in the game as opposed to the 2/4 games, and therefor could be termed as being tougher than the 2/4. If anyone disagrees could I hear why.

Currently I play 2 tables at once on a notepad. As you can imagine the tables overlap and being in 2 hands at the same time becomes a chore. I am seriously considering acquiring hardware to enable me to play 4 games at once without overlap. My question is if the 2/4 games are softer, should I play 4 tables of 2/4, 4 tables of 3/6 or some combination of 2/4 and 3/6. Now I realize that at first playing 4 tables will be intimidating but after a while I will adjust. So I suppose what I'm asking is what do you give up when you are playing 4 tables at once?

My last question deals with what times and days do you guys feel are the best for playing the 2/4 and 3/6 games? I currently play mainly late afternoon and evening during week days and whenever I can during weekends, I am in Los Angeles on Pacific time.

Thanks,
Jim

[Bob T.]

While I find the 3/6 games beatable, they seem to have a larger percent of better players in the game as opposed to the 2/4 games, and therefor could be termed as being tougher than the 2/4. If anyone disagrees could I hear why.



Its more money, it should be tougher.

I am seriously considering acquiring hardware to enable me to play 4 games at once without overlap. My question is if the 2/4 games are softer, should I play 4 tables of 2/4, 4 tables of 3/6 or some combination of 2/4 and 3/6. Now I realize that at first playing 4 tables will be intimidating but after a while I will adjust. So I suppose what I'm asking is what do you give up when you are playing 4 tables at once?


Play however many, and at whatever limit you are comfortable. As time passes, you will probably be more comfortable at higher limits, and also with more tables. I used to never play more than 2, and now I play up to 4. I think that as you get more and more experienced, you recognize situations quicker, and you can handle more information in less time.

My last question deals with what times and days do you guys feel are the best for playing the 2/4 and 3/6 games? I currently play mainly late afternoon and evening during week days and whenever I can during weekends, I am in Los Angeles on Pacific time.


Evenings and weekends, Baby. You want to be playing while the casual players are all out there.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[MaxPower]

Jim,

Some people whose opions I respect have told me that they earn more per hour at 2/4 than 3/6. These are people who have played a large number of hours. I've mostly played 3/6 or higher, so I can't confirm this. I suspect that you are not giving up much at all by multitabling 2/4 instead of 3/6. If you end up in less shorthanded pots at 2/4 you might actually make less mistakes when you are multitabling.

[compsolv]

I am a winning Party Poker player and I have a couple of observations for you . . .

1) I crush 4/8 at Foxwoods - but I do not seem to fair well at 3/6 in Party. It drives me crazy! I guess the players there (3/6 PP) are considerably better than in the Brick and Morter environment (4/8 Foxwoods). I have given up on 3/6 for now on Party due to a negatative return.

2) I tend to crush 2/4 at Party.

3) I am not "quick" enough to read players on more than two tables at once - so I personally would not consider more than two tables at once.

4) To ensure returns - I like to stick to a single table. I can do my best study of my opponents and really focus on their plays as I do in the casino.

5) Time of day makes a huge difference! As you might guess - late evenings are best - especially weekend evenings.

Hope these observations help you and best of luck. . .

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
I crush 4/8 at Foxwoods - but I do not seem to fair well at 3/6 in Party.

[/ QUOTE ] imo, 3/6 online plays like 10/20 B&M. 4/8 live is prolly somewhere btwn the 1/2, 2/4 online crowd.

[ QUOTE ]
Time of day makes a huge difference! As you might guess - late evenings are best - especially weekend evenings.

[/ QUOTE ] I see this comment a lot. It's funny, b/c I actually beat the daytime people for more.

[Lost Wages]

I would not recommed playing 2/4 and 3/6 at the same time until you are very comfortable with multitabling. You will make occasional mistakes with your pot odds and your small blind play (due to the 1/2 vs 2/3 blind structure).

Lost Wages

[JimRivett]

That's a good point.

The fact that the 3/6 game is a 1/3 blind structure is one of the reasons it's a good game.

Thanks, Jim

[JimRivett]

I think that low limit games (1/2 - 6/12) in Los Angeles would be very difficult to beat because of the rake/drop. I'm not sure, however I think it's a small bet that is dropped at 3/6 and 4/8, $3 for the house and $1 for the jackpot. One reason that makes the low limit internet games so attractive is the small amount that is raked.

Jim

[JimRivett]

Some people whose opions I respect have told me that they earn more per hour at 2/4 than 3/6.

Based upon my limited experience I can quite easily believe this.

I suspect that you are not giving up much at all by multitabling 2/4 instead of 3/6.

This is my "gut" feeling, and I was looking for some confirmation from someone who has "been there, done that"

Thanks,
Jim

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Some people whose opions I respect have told me that they earn more per hour at 2/4 than 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think about this, it's obvious that many players will experience this.

A player's win rate in BB/100 should be higher at 2/4 because the game is softer. Suppose a player can win X BB/100 at 3/6 and (X + 1) BB/100 at 2/4.

If X < 0 than the player must stay at 2/4 or below or he loses money. If X = 1 BB/100 then the player can win $6 per 100 playing 3/6 but $8 per hundred playing 2/4.

Only when the player improves to the point that he can beat 3/6 by 2 BB/100 does he breakeven playing 3/6 instead of 2/4.

These are example numbers, but they illustrate that you need a large advantage over the higher limit game before it is profitable to move up. Furthermore, losing streaks will be much less of a problem at the lower limit. The primary determinant of the frequency and severity of losing streaks is your win rate in BB/100. [Variance is also important, but most good players have fairly similar variances. Variance also won't change that much between 2/4 and 3/6.]

[J.R.]

I know your post is true for many, but for the serious player who takes the time to post on 2+2, I don't agree.

A player's win rate in BB/100 should be higher at 2/4 because the game is softer.

Theoretically speaking, a player does best in the game where their opponents deviate the furthest from correct startegy. Of course, the problem is that none of us play with correct startegy (much less always correctly implement it), and the correct strategy is effected by game conditions. In addition, some of us are inclined to be more aggressive or to play on the tighter side, or have more subtle strengths and weakness, so we all differ in the aspects of our game that approach and deviate from correct strategy.

Anyway, I think, 3-6 is more profitable than 2-4 for me (and I have decent sample size in both), in large part because the more short-handed nature of the 3-6 games rewards my aggression and punishes my opponents looser calls (dare I say "schooling"). I far less frequently run into manaical opponents who will grossly over-play (i.e. run and continue to run stone cold bluffs) at 2-4, while frequently do so at 3-6. I am also naturally distrustful, so I am more inclined to pay off (maybe more than I should in 2-4), which ends up being a beter tendancy in the 3-6 games, but either way 3-6 opponents generally bluff far greater than optimal, while in 2-4 the bluffing frequency is far closer to correct (people are more passive, and should be so because of the bigger pot sizes). The bigger pots in 2-4 also dictate a more ABC style (although there are some tricks), while in a game with some what smaller spots I can use my creativity and greater skill set (to the extent I have such), most notably hand reading.

I have trouble believing a dedicated poster can't make more money in the long run playing 3-6 over 2-4. Sure, there is more than win rate invovled in the playing decision, but in terms of long run profit and take the game seriously.

Suppose a player can win X BB/100 at 3/6 and (X + 1) BB/100 at 2/4. If X < 0 than the player must stay at 2/4 or below or he loses money.

I also don't agree with this relationship. I think, for a player who plays fairly well in 2-4 (2bb/100), the difference between the 2-4 and 3-6 earn rates is not as great as 1/bb hour. And if you dont beat 2-4 for 2/100, don't move up, you're likely have a good bit you can still learn at 2-4 (but if you have the roll, the occassionally shot at 3-6 to challenge yourself and get a feel for the spots you feel uncomfortable in is great).


if X < 0 than the player must stay at 2/4 or below or he loses money. If X = 1 BB/100 then the player can win $6 per 100 playing 3/6 but $8 per hundred playing 2/4.

In the short run yes, but outside of the short run this isn't necessarily true (I would argue its most often not true). The greater amount of money to be made playing higher is indisputable. Its less prominent in the difference between 2-4 and 3-6 but in light of that fact you can play 5-10 and 15-30 on Party, it can't be argued. Most players taking 2-4 and/or 3-6 seriously still have a significant upside potential in terms of their poker development (i.e. if you are motivated you can improve a great deal). So if they learn more quickly playing higher, which I think they do, they make more in the long run playing 3-6 now.

Its certainly possible (and in my opinion likely) one will develop faster playing 3-6 as opposed to 2-4. In 2-4 the pots are, in terms of big bets, larger on average. While playing in games with bigger pots takes some unique skills are needed, there is more skill necessary in the smaller pot games which are more common in 3-6 and higher up, where pot size doesn't so clearly dictate the correct play. The general loose passive nature of the 2-4 game isn't as common in 3-6, and loose passive games are generally straightforward and unimaginative, and certainly more so than less loose passive games.

3-6 is more shorthanded, involves more blind defense situations, and is a more aggressive game than 2-4. So the skills necessary to beat the 3-6 (responding to more increased aggression, blind play, blind stealing, and shorthanded postflop play- generally Hand Reading), could possibly (and I think actually are) much more quickly learned playing 3-6 than 2-4. Of course this assumes the player in question has a decent grasp of the skills necessary to beat 2-4, otherwise, they are better off taking their licks in 2-4. The quicker you become proffficient at a bigger game, the more you make (this holds less true as you go up in limits but it is the case as between 2-4 and 3-6)


Only when the player improves to the point that he can beat 3/6 by 2 BB/100 does he breakeven playing 3/6 instead of 2/4

Will this happen more quickly at 3-6 than 2-4? I think so, and quick enough to make up for any profits lost in the short run, especially when looked at in context of the the possibility of moving up beyond 3-6.


but they illustrate that you need a large advantage over the higher limit game before it is profitable to move up

I don't think it needs to be that "large".


Furthermore, losing streaks will be much less of a problem at the lower limit.

I think "much" is too strong of a word, at least for a player fairly competent in the 2-4 game (i.e. 2bb/100). The swings are bigger dollar wise, but I don't think there that much worse. It not linear, i.e. a 25% less BB/hour rate (2bb/100 dropping to 1.5BB/100) does not mean 25% greater swings.


Anway, one of the many things vehn was consitently great about was the constant harping on how much money SSers cost themselves by staying with easy games within their skill sets (especially ABC autopilot multitabling small stakes games- davidross was his a common poster boy for this) and not learning to beat bigger tougher games. If you take limit holdem seriously, the real money is made by moving up.

[Monty Cantsin]

Fantastic post. Thank you.

/mc

[Michael Davis]

Jim,

Welcome to the small stakes forum.

I found eighttabling at 2-4 to be WAY easier than 3-6. Many more multiway pots, less blind stealing situations. Blind stealing situations are the toughest to handle when you can't pay much attention to the game.

You should keep an eye out for the good tables at 3-6, perhaps keeping a log of bad players and chasing them wherever they happen to be playing, but play 2-4 if you find it easier.

-Michael

[StellarWind]

.

[RED_RAIN]

I have limited hands at both 2/4 and 3/6

I 4 table.

I have crushed all levels at .5/1, 1/2, 2/4, and am beating 3/6.

Here are my 2/4 and 3/6 numbers

12k hands 2/4 hourly rate - $43.04
13k hands 3/6 hourly rate - $31.68

I have been running bad on 3/6 with a 6k bad streak so I think it may be off.

A few things to note, I am looking to get beyond 3/6 so that's why I have been staying at 3/6 even though it shows I make a lot more at 2/4. Where do you want to be?

3/6 blind structure really hurts those who abuse the SB with weak calls.

3/6 is a good part tighter preflop with less players to flop.

2/4 bad players seem to make much larger mistakes than bad 3/6 players.

I agree games are better at night and weekend, but it seems to me, game is beatable at any point in day.