Posting behind the button.

I was at the Taj this weekend, playing in the $5-$10 HE game and one person at the table did something very strange.


Every two orbits when it was his turn to post a blind, he would go out and smoke a cigarette, then return and post both the small and big blind behind the button.


The guy next to me was mentioning that it was a good plan, since this man was getting the advantages of the blind and positional advantage at a cost of $2 extra.


I think it is actually a bad idea, since you are now only getting 7 hands(if the table is ten handed) for your $7, rather than 10 hands for your $7.


I am pretty sure you would be better off taking a break somewhere in middle/early position, if yuo were going to take a break at all. Typically my breaks are for a full orbit anyhow.


Any opinions?


-J

You must not be a smaker. A "nicotine fit" will cost you more in the BB than feeling satisfied one off the button.


jimbo

I think either policy could be best, depending on how well the smoker plays from the blinds.


Tommy

Posting Behind the Button....


It's an old trick. I've been in a game where one guy would do it every round -- finally I complained and the house(floorman) put a stop to this ploy. The guy pulling it figures he is getting better odds and and has a chance to win his posted blinds plus the regular blinds. If everybody did it every time there would not be much of a game. Also in LA County CA where there is a dead drop, posting behind the blind cause the blinds to spin around faster which increases the expense ratio for the other guys about 15%.


I'd like to see some economic comments besides my own. Thank you.


Carl

Correction:


Expense ratio goes up about over 30% or so....


Carl here...

J,

I was also playing 5-10 HE at the Taj this weekend on Sat. I think there were two tables going at the time so i'm not sure if we were at the same one. I played from like 5-9. I was at a pretty tight table where we were chopping the blinds at a high rate. If you were at the game straight back from the entrance where you sign up at then between 5 and 9 then we were at the same game.

not me


sorry to miss lead you


carl

You are correct. It is a bad idea for two reasons. First, the small blind that you are putting in is "dead money" in that it doesn't play for you. You want to avoid putting in "dead money" whenever possible. Second, putting in all this extra money in the pot increases the likelihood of someone else raising. You want to avoid having money in raised pots on random cards.


There is a very well-known $30-$60 pro here in Vegas who does this all the time. She will leave the table to talk on the phone, go to the restroom, or whatever. She returns to the table, waits for the button to pass, and then posts a $30 big blind plus a dead $20 small blind. In a four hour playing session she will do this a half-dozen times. I think this is costing her some serious money over the course of a year.

I was at table 70(its kindof sad that I know that). It is by the Keno area. An older black woman moved to our table who was at your table. She complained for twenty minutes about how tight the table she just came from was. It was kindof funny, since she sat down and asked "Is this table getting any action?" Just at that time I was raising pocket Kings and six people saw the flop.


If you have to ask.....


-J

Consider that the small blind is often "dead money" anyways. In a game where preflop raises are frequent, you will be throwing away a large portion of your small blinds anyways. And those that you dont throw away you are in bad position the entire hand.


Instead of putting in both blinds in bad position, where the small blind is all too often mucked.. I think its perfectly reasonable to give up 3 hands per orbit (2 if you already consider the small blind mostly dead) in order to:


a) post your big blind in good position with other blinds in the pot

b) be involved in your (dead) small blind pot

c) irritate other players innocently


However there is a devistating counter-strategy..

I agree with you. This is a bad idea, because he still pays the same amount at the end, and he still would have the button after the blinds pass, but he should stay and get those 2 free hands (if he wants to maximize ). Also, two hands for a cig isn't enough to keep those withdrawal jitters away. To really play your best, you should leave just before the big, miss your blind, smoke your entire cig with long, full drags, then come back to catch the big blind one round later.

Joe in Connecticut wrote:


> Consider that the small blind is often "dead

> money" anyways. In a game where preflop raises

> are frequent, you will be throwing away a large

> portion of your small blinds anyways. And those

> that you dont throw away you are in bad position

> the entire hand.


Your small blind is *absolutely not* dead money. In exchange for posting it, you receive equity in the pot.


You should throw away rather fewer hands in the small blind than you should under the gun, even in a game where there is lots of raising taking place.


In a 4-chip/8-chip game like 20-40, it costs you two chips to limp in and six chips to call a raise. Even though you are completely out of position, you can be fairly generous with your limps, and less picky about calling raises than you would need to be in (say) cold-calling two bets from middle position.


In a 3-chip/6-chip game like 15-30, it costs but one chip to limp and only four chips to call a raise.


By all means, you are going to have to be picky about the hands you play -- you have to be picky about the hands you play in any position. But your blind money is not dead money.


In terms of the larger question, what it boils down to is this: By posting after the button, you are paying the same amount of money to play three fewer hands. In two of those spots you typically lose money. (Yes, even expert players lose money, on average, in the blinds.) In the third spot, on the button, you expect to make money -- it is your most lucrative position, in fact. *Does the money you win on the button exceed that which you lose in the blinds?* If so, then your EV goes down when you skip the blinds and post afterwards.

Alan Bostick said:


"*Does the money you win on the button exceed that which you lose in the blinds?* If so, then your EV goes down when you skip the blinds and post afterwards."


It seems to me that in almost all cases the money you lose in the blinds exceeds the money you win on the button. If it doesn't, you are playing the other 7 positions for pure profit, and are probably beating the game by several big bets per round. I haven't thought about this, but does this mean that your EV goes up when you skip the blinds? If not, I think you need to clarify the above statement.


Craig

I think the question of whether you lose more in the blinds than make on the button is meant to be calculated without the blind money, since in actuality the player posting in the cutoff is putting a blind in anyhow and a dead small blind on top of it. I think the real question is : Is the advantage of the position worth the EV you get in the little/big/button position. I can't imagine it is.


-J

J said :


"I think the question of whether you lose more in the blinds than make on the button is meant to be calculated without the blind money"


Yes, I think after further consideration you are right, but then one would expect that the good player then makes money in the blinds (because the blind money is live they buy some EV with it) despite the positional disadvantage, unlike what Alan Bostick said.


I meant to merely take issue with that statement; the conclusion that passing the blinds cost you money is still valid, at least for a winning player, since you lose 3 opportunities to win and you small blind becomes dead money.


Craig

Alan, I bet yer the kind of guy who plays way too many hands out of the small blind.