BigBluffer
09-28-2004, 10:21 AM
I've sat on this over the weekend and through a major hurricane, but it's still eating at me and I want to get this off my chest. I also want to get opinions on what should've been done at the time and/or what can be done in the future.
Friday night I ran into the worst case of angle shooting/cheating I've ever seen. We're playing low-stakes hold'em. The Dude is drinking heavily and betting like a maniac. I've adjusted my game accordingly, so I'm not in very many pots. Thankfully, he's two seats to my right. In a nutshell here's a summary of his behavior.
1. Intentionally announced his hands incorrectly trying to induce others to fold a better hand.
Example: at the showdown for one hand The Dude announced "two pair." In fact, he turned over a hand that didn't even contain a pair. Fortunately, others in the hand also turned over their cards. This is a clear attempt to get players with better hands to muck their hands at the showdown (after all betting has been completed). We've all seen new players innocently mis-read their hands. Fortunately the "cards speak for themselves" regardless of what the player announces. This player is neither new, nor innocent. His actions were, if not cheating, clearly unethical. He did this several times.
2. Frequently raised out of turn. Then, after being told by the dealer to take back his bet and wait for his turn, he would merely call or even fold once the betting got to him. This is a clear attempt to get players ahead of him to fold. Again, new players will sometimes bet out of turn. The dealer patiently explains to them the rule for waiting their turn. However, this is not a new player. He knew what he was doing. The dealer should have required his out-of-turn raises to be binding. He should not have been allowed to take his bets back. After about the fourth time this happened, I advised the Floorperson what was happening. The Floorperson then advised the dealer to not allow any out-of-turn betting and the dealer advised the player not to bet out of turn.
3. Verbally announced "bet in the dark" before the flop cards are turned up, then when the betting gets to him, just checking. This is an attempt to get players ahead of him to check so he can possibly see the next card for free. The dealer should have required his verbal action to be binding, especially if it caused players ahead of him to check.
4. Verbally announced "raise in the dark" before the flop cards are turned up, then when the betting gets to him, either calling or folding. This is another attempt to get players ahead of him to fold. The dealer should have required his verbal raise to be binding, especially if it caused players ahead of him to fold.
5. Openly colluded with another player.
Example 1: In a fairly small pot between him, the player in seat 4, and another player, he announced to the player in seat 4, "If I win this hand I'll split it with you." When the player in seat 4 won the hand, he split the pot with the dude, pushing half the chips in the pot across the table. If nothing else, this violates the "One player to a hand" rule. Any time 2 players make an agreement like that, it smells of collusion.
Example 2: Immediately after the hand cited in the above example The Dude announced to the player in seat 4, "The next hand I win, I'll split with you." Shortly after that, the two of them got into a raising battle with a couple of other players involved in the hand. The Dude raised the blinds, Seat 4 re-raised and The Dude capped the betting. At least 4 players saw the flop. Betting on the flop was raised at least once. The result was a rather large pot of about $75. In the end The Dude turned over 9-2 offsuit! This is a hand you cap the betting with pre-flop?! Seat 4 had J-J, a legitimate raising hand. The Dude managed to get a full house and win the hand. He immediately proceeded to cut the pot in half and started to shove half of the chips over to seat 4. The dealer stopped him dead in his tracks and told him "If you want to make a deal and give him cash after the game is over that's up to you, but you can't give him chips in the middle of the game." In all the time I've been playing poker, I've never seen a more blatant example of open collusion. It is inexcusable that this player was allowed to continue playing without at least a warning from the Floorperson, who should have been immediately advised of the situation by the dealer.
I left the game after this hand but stayed in the poker room for a while. It did not appear that either the dealer or the Floorperson said anything further to these players about their actions.
I have drafted a letter to the Poker Room Manager describing the events of the night and saying that I am reconsidering my options regarding where I play poker.
What else could I have done? Should I send the letter? What should the dealers and Floorperson have done? Am I overreacting?
Friday night I ran into the worst case of angle shooting/cheating I've ever seen. We're playing low-stakes hold'em. The Dude is drinking heavily and betting like a maniac. I've adjusted my game accordingly, so I'm not in very many pots. Thankfully, he's two seats to my right. In a nutshell here's a summary of his behavior.
1. Intentionally announced his hands incorrectly trying to induce others to fold a better hand.
Example: at the showdown for one hand The Dude announced "two pair." In fact, he turned over a hand that didn't even contain a pair. Fortunately, others in the hand also turned over their cards. This is a clear attempt to get players with better hands to muck their hands at the showdown (after all betting has been completed). We've all seen new players innocently mis-read their hands. Fortunately the "cards speak for themselves" regardless of what the player announces. This player is neither new, nor innocent. His actions were, if not cheating, clearly unethical. He did this several times.
2. Frequently raised out of turn. Then, after being told by the dealer to take back his bet and wait for his turn, he would merely call or even fold once the betting got to him. This is a clear attempt to get players ahead of him to fold. Again, new players will sometimes bet out of turn. The dealer patiently explains to them the rule for waiting their turn. However, this is not a new player. He knew what he was doing. The dealer should have required his out-of-turn raises to be binding. He should not have been allowed to take his bets back. After about the fourth time this happened, I advised the Floorperson what was happening. The Floorperson then advised the dealer to not allow any out-of-turn betting and the dealer advised the player not to bet out of turn.
3. Verbally announced "bet in the dark" before the flop cards are turned up, then when the betting gets to him, just checking. This is an attempt to get players ahead of him to check so he can possibly see the next card for free. The dealer should have required his verbal action to be binding, especially if it caused players ahead of him to check.
4. Verbally announced "raise in the dark" before the flop cards are turned up, then when the betting gets to him, either calling or folding. This is another attempt to get players ahead of him to fold. The dealer should have required his verbal raise to be binding, especially if it caused players ahead of him to fold.
5. Openly colluded with another player.
Example 1: In a fairly small pot between him, the player in seat 4, and another player, he announced to the player in seat 4, "If I win this hand I'll split it with you." When the player in seat 4 won the hand, he split the pot with the dude, pushing half the chips in the pot across the table. If nothing else, this violates the "One player to a hand" rule. Any time 2 players make an agreement like that, it smells of collusion.
Example 2: Immediately after the hand cited in the above example The Dude announced to the player in seat 4, "The next hand I win, I'll split with you." Shortly after that, the two of them got into a raising battle with a couple of other players involved in the hand. The Dude raised the blinds, Seat 4 re-raised and The Dude capped the betting. At least 4 players saw the flop. Betting on the flop was raised at least once. The result was a rather large pot of about $75. In the end The Dude turned over 9-2 offsuit! This is a hand you cap the betting with pre-flop?! Seat 4 had J-J, a legitimate raising hand. The Dude managed to get a full house and win the hand. He immediately proceeded to cut the pot in half and started to shove half of the chips over to seat 4. The dealer stopped him dead in his tracks and told him "If you want to make a deal and give him cash after the game is over that's up to you, but you can't give him chips in the middle of the game." In all the time I've been playing poker, I've never seen a more blatant example of open collusion. It is inexcusable that this player was allowed to continue playing without at least a warning from the Floorperson, who should have been immediately advised of the situation by the dealer.
I left the game after this hand but stayed in the poker room for a while. It did not appear that either the dealer or the Floorperson said anything further to these players about their actions.
I have drafted a letter to the Poker Room Manager describing the events of the night and saying that I am reconsidering my options regarding where I play poker.
What else could I have done? Should I send the letter? What should the dealers and Floorperson have done? Am I overreacting?